Young drivers telematics Black Box algorithm black hole

Jumblebumble

fc94 said:

There is no mistake. Major insurance companies supply a central database called Trackmate with the speed of vehicles they insure and which are equipped with black boxes.  This  data is then collated and redistributed to the insurance companies so they can compare your speed with the average. Black boxes do not know the speed limit anywhere, only comparative speed. 

Can you share suitably redacted exactly what they said in writing ( or is this another case of the cleaner answering the phone in which case ask for it in writing as I am with chrisw and do not believe that for one moment an insurance company would do this as if it was true and widely  exposed it would cause huge reputational damage

Sandtree

fc94 said:

There is no mistake. Major insurance companies supply a central database called Trackmate with the speed of vehicles they insure and which are equipped with black boxes.  This  data is then collated and redistributed to the insurance companies so they can compare your speed with the average. Black boxes do not know the speed limit anywhere, only comparative speed. 

Insurance companies are not in the industry of making black boxes and therefore your understanding of the supply chain is slightly incorrect.

There are more than one company out there that produces black boxes for a variety of insurance, fleet management etc purposes. Companies, like insurers, can buy (or be gifted) both the black box and the data it generates in exchange for allowing the provider to retain a copy of the data too.

The black box records fairly simple things like GPS location, speed etc. This data is then streamed to the black box manufacturer who passes it on to the relevant company. If the black box or the manufacturer's systems convert the GPS location to a road and therefore a speed limit is a fairly moot point but without doubt it is very simple to take the data out of the black box and see if the driver was above or below the speed limit for the road as recorded in the relevant map.

It would also be possible for the blackbox manufacturer to do a comparative speed analysis for the vehicle however it is limited to only those other vehicles with their brand of black box installed.  These devices are fairly uncommon in private cars but more common in HGVs and van fleets. So if a car is on a motorway there is a reasonable prospect of other devices being around but then you'll ve comparing cars with lorrys etc. If you are on a back street, country lane or such it could be several days since the last time a vehicle with a device used that road. 

Naturally, what an insurer will see depends on what services they have bought (or been given) and it'll be limited only to those using the same service.

In the age of data lakes, ML & AI etc I am sure if the data is free insurers will get it and analyse it to see what it shows but if any are using it materially is a separate matter.

As to contact centre agents... there are many bright young things in contact centres for insurance companies and brokers but the reality is they get fairly basic training and dont get access to the How or Why of the world. Its somewhat in human nature to not like to say you don't know something or you're not allowed to know something and unfortunately this does occasionally cause people to make up things to try and be helpful. Worst still once its been said a couple of times it can spread like an urban myth and be a pain to stamp out. The alternative is a crazy level of oversight and call monitors where an agent saying "thats a nice car" to someone saying they are considering buying a Ferrari California gets them up on a disciplinary for giving advice.

Dr_Crypto

fc94 said:

There is no mistake. Major insurance companies supply a central database called Trackmate with the speed of vehicles they insure and which are equipped with black boxes.  This  data is then collated and redistributed to the insurance companies so they can compare your speed with the average. Black boxes do not know the speed limit anywhere, only comparative speed. 

Name one insurer that encourages people to speed? Not. A. Chance. 

rudekid48

fc94 said:

There is no mistake. Major insurance companies supply a central database called Trackmate with the speed of vehicles they insure and which are equipped with black boxes.  This  data is then collated and redistributed to the insurance companies so they can compare your speed with the average. Black boxes do not know the speed limit anywhere, only comparative speed. 

Sorry but you've been given poor information.  "Trackmate" (actually Trakm8) do not hold data for all insurance companies.  They do provide boxes to Direct Line but not every insurer.  You are correct that a black box does not know the speed limit, but it doesn't need to - all the black box does is record raw data (GPS readings, accelerometer/gyro readings etc) and feed them back to the provider.  The provider will then use the GPS data to establish a lat/long position, they will then do a look-up to another database to look at the speed limit for those coordinates and then compare that against the speed recorded by the box.  Sandtree is correct in how relative speeds are compared but there are more of these types of devices in cars than you might think (most hire cars for example).  It is also not as straight forward as a straight comparison vs average speeds recorded for the same location - the number of data points recorded as well as the age of the data will be taken into account (e.g. if only one other person had recorded data on that stretch of road and it was 2 years ago - it would be ignored).  Hope this helps.

fc94

To Dr. Krypto, 100% able to redact. As I have already stated, I never suggested insurance companies would encourage speeding. What I stated clearly is that the driver is scored on comparative speed, not the speed limit which the black box does not know. The speeds of the vehicles are collected by only those insurance companies who subscribe to that black box data collector. Nor did I ever suggest the insurance companies manufacture the black boxes. And to those who suggested I have been speaking with ill trained agents, the call to confirm the comparative speed was reiterated yesterday to me by a Team Leader who corroborated the methodology which was given to me again yesterday by an agent. Thank you for all your comments. 

Sandtree

fc94 said:

What I stated clearly is that the driver is scored on comparative speed, not the speed limit which the black box does not know. 

This is getting boring now...

The black box knows next to nothing, it sends the basic data of location, giro reading etc. Comparative speed, speed limits etc are all known by the telematics company that is receiving the data based on the GPS data etc. Insurers have the option of what they want to receive either paid for or for free.

No one is stating that comparative speed isnt included in the algorithm but the speed limit without doubt is going to be included too. For every road, insurers will know the speed limit but for only a very modest proportion of roads outside of major towns or motorways/dual carriage ways there will be enough data to do a recent comparison of driving speeds, go onto any minor roads and there will be insufficient recent data to make any comparison but the speed limit will remain known.

Team Leaders have received no further insurance training than the rank and file sales & service staff... their additional training is on man management etc. I have written briefing papers for new products... there is what the technical behind the scenes technical teams get, then what the senior management/exec get, then Claims & underwriting support and finally what S&S get. The first two arent intended to be shared wider, the final two could be but generally over informing S&S staff just leads to messes (a little knowledge is a dangerous thing et al)

fc94

Sorry, Sandtree.  I won't be engaging with someone who starts a civilized discussion with an insult. 

Jumblebumble

fc94 said:

Sorry, Sandtree.  I won't be engaging with someone who starts a civilized discussion with an insult. 

I would still like to see what you claim in writing, and not what some person in a call centre tells you as I believe what you tell me as much as I believe people who claim to have had a NIP from the police for driving at 33 MPH in a 30 Zone
Of course they will probably tell you they cannot put it in writing and then if I am correct you can reflect that even the most stupid person is likely to think a bit more about what they are telling you if they have to put it in writing
In addition to future  reputational damage I struggle to believe that the ombudsman would consider that an insurance company would be keeping to their duty to treat customers fairly by behaving as you describe.

Thrugelmir

Sandtree said:

fc94 said:

What I stated clearly is that the driver is scored on comparative speed, not the speed limit which the black box does not know. 

 For every road, insurers will know the speed limit but for only a very modest proportion of roads outside of major towns or motorways/dual carriage ways there will be enough data to do a recent comparison of driving speeds, go onto any minor roads and there will be insufficient recent data to make any comparison but the speed limit will remain known.

My SatNav indicates clearly when I'm exceeding the speed limit. The technology exists. 

[Deleted User]

Thrugelmir said:

Sandtree said:

fc94 said:

What I stated clearly is that the driver is scored on comparative speed, not the speed limit which the black box does not know. 

 For every road, insurers will know the speed limit but for only a very modest proportion of roads outside of major towns or motorways/dual carriage ways there will be enough data to do a recent comparison of driving speeds, go onto any minor roads and there will be insufficient recent data to make any comparison but the speed limit will remain known.

My SatNav indicates clearly when I'm exceeding the speed limit. The technology exists. 

Sandtree didn't say otherwise, they stated that there isn't enough data to do a comparison of the average driving speeds on a road outside of major roads where black box drivers have gone.

Any which way, it is not illegal to drive under the speed limit, being penalised for doing say 60mph on a motorway would be ludicrous when the government is trialling 60mph zones on motorways to reduce pollution. Doing 30mph in a 60mph road would be more problematic but even then a black box doesn't know if it's heavily raining / foggy and driver is on unlit roads etc. You can "park" on a motorway sometimes due to congestion