Issues in my groundfloor flat - Multiple leaks from flat upstairs and noisy, inconsiderate tenants

TranceNRG

Hi ladies and gents,
I'm after some advice regarding a difficult situation I'm in. I hope this is the right section to post this.
I own and live (with my girlfriend) in a ground floor garden flat (period house converted 2 flats in mid 80s) in West London. I own share of the freehold and have been living there for about 5 years now. The owner of the upstairs flat bought it about 4 years ago and he owns the other share of the freehold. We've had a pretty good relationship until recently. 

Noise issues
There are 4 separate tenants living in the 3 bed flat upstairs. The tenant on the lease has sub let it to other people so new tenants seem to move in every few months. There's probably no insulation in the building and the conversion done poorly, so we hear all the noises (can hear all the footsteps and their conversations) from the upstairs flat. I understand that people need to live and you can't do much about the general noise but the excessive noise is affecting our quality of life. In the last 6 months or so it's been very noisy at times. There are a lot of them and they seem to go in/out all the time (and they get frequent visitors). A lot of the noise is generated when they open/close building and flat entrance doors harshly and when they run/up down stairs. Multiple times we've been woken up late at night and in the morning due to this noise. The other big noise generator is their washing machine. When it's on, it is very very loud and the whole house shakes at the end of the cycle. To make matters worse, they seem to run it frequently (10+ times a week and sometimes 4 times a day). They however don't run it really early or really late (I've asked them not to) but it's still irritating when it's running a lot. There are also a couple of tenants in there who seem to stomp/walk really fast which can be quite intrusive. I've mentioned this to the owner upstairs and he has agreed to install new underlay and carpet so the footstep noise should improve a bit. However the bigger issue is tenants' lack of understanding and consideration towards us. There are simple things they can do (opening/closing entrance doors gently and not running up and down, running the washing machine infrequently, etc.) to reduce noise which would make a big difference to us. In the past, if the tenants were particularly noisy, I used to talk to the main tenant (also sent him Whatsapp messages) to let him know about noise issues and he would talk to other tenants. However at the start of this year he told me not to tell him about issues with the flat and go to the landlord instead which surprised me but I said OK. Perhaps he got annoyed with me for telling him about noise issues. I was always polite and the communication wasn't that frequent (maybe once every couple of months or so). I thought you were supposed to talk to your neighbours to make them aware of noise issues (when new people move in they aren't aware how noisy it is for us and sometimes tenants forget) and resolve any issues. Anyway since the start of the year, I've been unable to communicate it to the tenant though I have emailed about the noise issues to the owner in the last few months. I don't think the owner has communicated this to his tenants.

Multiple leaks
In the past 4 years or so there have been multiple leaks from the flat upstairs. The leaks have occurred due to multiple reasons. One time they got a replacement washing machine and it started leaking. Couple of the leaks happened when their bathroom was being renovated due to a careless/amateur builder. Last year there was a leak due to a negligent tenant (he was drunk at the time) leaving the bathroom tap running. Then another leak happened a couple of weeks after that and I was told it was a leak from one of the pipes in the bathroom. 
All the leaks so far have happened above our living room (they have their kitchen and bathroom above our living room). when there's a leak, the ceiling in the middle of the living room usually gets saturated with water and water starts coming down the ceiling rose and the light fitting. As a result the plaster in the celling and around the ceiling rose cracks, ceiling gets stained and the light fitting gets damaged. We have to then go for weeks without being able to turn living room lights on until the ceiling and electrical cables are dry. We then have to get quotes from builders and then need to be home (couple of times I had to work from and take time off work) for the repairs. This is very disruptive to our lives. Luckily we were home every time there was a leak. Otherwise the damage could have been in thousands if not tens of thousands as we have furniture, electronic items and wooden flooring in the affected area. Every time we go away and sometime when we go out, we worry there might be another leak from upstairs.
I had previously emailed the owner upstairs saying I'm getting sick of all the leaks and he and the tenants need to be careful, take ownership and if they get tradesmen to do any plumbing work, get reputable people and keep an eye on the work. In the past he has apologised, agreed to pay for the damage and said there's not much he can do other than getting reputable tradesmen.
Anyway much to our annoyance, we discovered another leak last week which was probably the 7th or the 8th leak. The situation got much worse as neither the owner nor the tenant (the one on the lease) answered my calls. I knocked on the entrance door of the upstairs flat but no one answered. I was thinking of turning the water mains off but then I saw the tenant walk in to the building so I told him there's another leak and followed the tenant upstairs (I had been to that flat many times) to see where the leak was coming from. I asked the tenant if he was ignoring my calls or have my number blocked. He said 'it doesn't matter' and I said 'It does matter as if my property is damaged I need to be able to contact you'. He got annoyed and asked me to leave the flat which infuriated me as I thought it was unnecessary and I wasn't unreasonable. I told him I was going to ring the owner straight away. I tried to call the owner again but there was no answer. I sent him messages via SMS and Whatsapp as well. Later in the day I got an SMS from the owner saying the tenant had informed him there was a leak from the replacement washing machine and that he's sorry but there's not much he can do as they got a big company to do the work and that he'd get the company to pay for the repairs. He also said he's unable to talk on the phone. His unwillingness to speak to me frustrated me further as I had helped him in the past whenever he requested me to do something. I wrote him an email outlining how there have been multiple leaks and tenants have been inconsiderate towards us and the property, the situation is going to get ugly if nothing is changed and asked him if he could get new tenants and/or reduce the number of tenants upstairs to reduce noise levels. I believe the whole situation could have been handled much better had the tenant or the owner was willing to speak to me. It's been pretty stressful and I have been struggling to sleep and getting persistent headaches probably due to stress.

The owner replied to my email a few days later and said he couldn't answer the calls because his communication channels were restricted as he was in a dark place (however he clearly got in touch with his tenant so seems it's just my calls he was ignoring). He said he understood it's frustrating but it's a crap part of life and it's not his or tenant's fault. He said he hired professionals to do the job and besides getting the damage repaired there's not much else he can do. I wrote him another email saying I've run out of patience as there have been far too many leaks and they need to be very careful and there are things tenants can and should do for example if they got a replacement washing machine they should have checked to see if there were any leaks after running a wash cycle, considering there was a leak only a few years ago the previous time they replaced the washing machine. I asked him if we could have a face to face meeting ASAP.

What to do next
Last week I was really frustrate and cross at them and was thinking of complaining to the council about the noise issues and/or of hiring a solicitor to get legal advice. I'm a bit calmer now and I understand when you go down that route, things can get uglier and the other co-freeholder and I may never be on speaking terms so I thought I'd ask for some advice here first. Is there anything we can do about noise issues? Do we just have to put up with it? Is there anything we can do to let the tenants/owner know that it's not acceptable to have any more leaks? (they don't seem to be taking it seriously IMO). The leaks in our flat combined with the noise issue and tension with tenants upstairs are having a big impact on our lives. What would you do if you were in my shoes? 

Thank you for reading this long post and any words of wisdom

 

[Deleted User]

Sell up & move on 

theoretica

It reads to me as though you are lumping leaks due to completely different sources together - because the result for you is the same.  But bad luck in washing machines is quite separate from getting drunk, and a fair distance from incompetent builders.

There are leak detectors - go off at fire alarm volumes if they get wet or send text messages.  Maybe ask for a few of those in key places upstairs?

Also, next time you need an electrician round you might ask if it would be possible to waterproof the electrics

TranceNRG

_shel said:

Sell up & move on 

It did cross my mind but I did a complete refurbishment of the flat, there's a nice big garden which I've spent a lot of time on and It's in a nice area so apart from the nuisance from tenants, it's a lovely home. We don't want to give up and just leave, at least not yet. 

TranceNRG

theoretica said:

It reads to me as though you are lumping leaks due to completely different sources together - because the result for you is the same.  But bad luck in washing machines is quite separate from getting drunk, and a fair distance from incompetent builders.

There are leak detectors - go off at fire alarm volumes if they get wet or send text messages.  Maybe ask for a few of those in key places upstairs?

Also, next time you need an electrician round you might ask if it would be possible to waterproof the electrics

You are right, I'm lumping them together because the end result is the same for us - damage to the property and disruption to our lives. Where do we stand from a legal point of view? Do their legal obligations end with them getting a reputable company/tradesmen? If these leaks keep happening for whatever reason, would the tenants/co-freeholder be liable for emotional stress/disruption to our lives? I don't think they are showing enough consideration to our property. They could have easily checked if there was a leak next to the washing machine after getting it installed/replaced.
And what about the noise?

Norman_Castle

Indifference about repeated leaks is disgusting behaviour. Can you fit a leak detector with the sounder above the ceiling plaster? If the noise bothers them they might take responsibility for their uselessness. With indifferent problem neighbours I've found causing them problems often gets the best results.

If you've got access to the banging doors try fitting foam or rubber damping between the door and frame, it can make a big difference.

Homer_home

Why have you not considered sound proofing your ceiling? You will always get noise from an upstairs tenant if no soundproofing is installed you cannot expect them to tiptoe around all the time

Are you sure they are running the washing machine so much? My machine takes near 4 hrs to complete a full load and spins several times whilst it's found so 

Also sitting a washing machine on a wooden floor will always cause vibration it is not a solid enough surface , floor strengthening and dampeners needs to be installed to quiet things down 

[Deleted User]

If you chose to live in a ground floor flat in a badly converted, poorly insulated property, with tenants upstairs, I think you just have to accept that this is how it's going to be.

The tenants upstairs will have been under lockdown, home a lot more, and with their own worries.   No wonder they've directed you towards the property owner.   You will have been causing them stress with your behaviour, as well.

I think some people just aren't suited to living below another flat.  It's not for everyone.  It sounds like it's not for you.   Even if the present owner sells up and a nice couple buy it and move in, you'll be complaining about their kids stomping around and banging their toys on the floor. Sell up and move on, indeed, or accept the cons as well as the pros that come with your present home.

Finally, have you tried being noisier yourself so that you don't notice their noise?  Time for a blast of TranceNRG!

[Deleted User]

Also, you would get more responses if you posted in this forum:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/categories/house-buying-renting-selling

TranceNRG

Homer_home said:

Why have you not considered sound proofing your ceiling? You will always get noise from an upstairs tenant if no soundproofing is installed you cannot expect them to tiptoe around all the time

Are you sure they are running the washing machine so much? My machine takes near 4 hrs to complete a full load and spins several times whilst it's found so 

Also sitting a washing machine on a wooden floor will always cause vibration it is not a solid enough surface , floor strengthening and dampeners needs to be installed to quiet things down 

We are not expecting them to tiptoe. As I said, we can hear their conversations and footsteps and we've accepted that as part of living in a converted flat however the excessive noise (when they can easily avoid/reduce it if they are being considerate) is annoying.

 I've looked in to soundproofing ceiling in the past and read mixed things about it. Besides the sound will just escape from other parts of the building (walls and doors) I reckon.

Yes they are definitely runing the washing machine multiple times in a day. It's pretty easy to tell what they are doing. The cycles are usually only about 1.5 hrs but the issue is each person seems to be running it about 3 times a week which is excessive IMO (My girlfriend I probably use the washing machine 3 times a week max between us) and they should be aware it's extrmely noisy and it shakes the whole building when it's on so should try to use it infrequently.

I'll sugggest floor strengthening and dampners to the owner upstairs if I get to speak to him in person.
Those who suggested being noisy in return to annoy the people upstairs - we are not really intersted in being tat for tat. We like to live in peace and quiet and do the right thing. I think us being noisy probably will only make things worse as the owner upstairs willl have a reason to blame us.

Ultimately if things don't improve, we may decide to sell and move on (we've been thinking about selling the flat and buying a house but probably didn't expect to do it so soon) but for now I'm trying to see if we can get the tenants/owner to be more considerate towards us and the property.

theoretica

Asking if they would put an antivibration mat under the washing machine if you bought one would be worth a try. Usually best to have the mat, then a wood sheet and then the washing machine unless you get one that is all in one.  Technical solutions are more likely to be long lasting rather than asking people to change their behaviour which will get forgotten about.