Counter charging for PCN at small claims court

Redx

that looks more like a witness statement than a defence

read the example defences on here, then draft something more like a proper defence, not a witness statement (WS)

at least your witness statement has got off to a good , if brief , start

Coupon-mad

That is not a defence.   Bin it.

As this is ParkingEye, copy and adapt a PARKINGEYE DEFENCE EXAMPLE from the NEWBIES THREAD POST #2.

AND - CALLING ALL NEWBIES!

Please now make a real difference because not enough people have yet, and time is running out.

An urgent task – deadline approaching in about ten days:

The Government is consulting for just a few more days, about a new statutory code of practice (CoP) and framework to rein in the rogue parking firms.  Read and comment on the draft CoP proposal and the enforcement framework consultation, and get everyone you know to do the same.

You will need to register then log in, to comment on the CoP and enter an occupation even if you are retired or a homemaker.  Submit comments as soon as you are happy with them.

https://standardsdevelopment.bsigroup.com/projects/2020-00193#/section

You do not need to register to comment on the enforcement framework which can be found here. It has a link on page 5 to make comments.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/913272/Code_Enforcement_Framework_consultation.pdf

HOW TO DO THE SUBMISSIONS:

1. Read the cover letter

2. Read the cover letter again and note the suggested extra questions...and if you agree that, say, the 'loading/unloading and dropping off, asking for directions, and disabled people parking on double yellows as they can on street' activities listed should be exempt (not parking events, what do you think?) then please go to the Annexes at the end of the PAS Code and find the one about Exempt Vehicles and state what other activity you think should be added to the exempt list.  

 

If you do nothing else, please comment on:

- the amount of the parking charge levels

- the annexes at the end of the PAS (reading through the whole thing takes hours so if you have nothing to say about the definitions, for example, then skip to more vital points and the annex tables at the end.

- the bit about debt collectors and whether you think PPCs should be allowed to add 'costs' a second time, for the letters that are already within the rationale of the 'parking charge' sum...hmmm...

Responses into the PAS 232 and MHCLG framework documents are not completely straightforward:

On the MHCLG response, you have to answer the questions on a 1-5 scale from strongly agree to strongly disagree, and then put some commentary. No way to upload documents or alternatives but this doesn't take long.

 

 On the PAS 232, you have to click on each clause and sub-clause to put your comments, and a suggested rewording of their draft.  You can see comments which other people have written!   But, when you click ‘submit’, a message pops up to say your comments have been received, but that only applies to the particular clause you have just addressed.  

You have to go back up and find the next section, then the next...

You have to click ‘submit’ separately for each individual clause response.  Some people will be caught out by this but can revisit it and add further responses up to 12 October.

 

Things to think about:

A Speeding fine is £100.  A Local Authority lower rate parking penalty is £50.  Which do you think a private PCN should be like or do you think it should be something different?  

Do you think if all payment methods are not functioning that PPC can 'fine' you?

 

Do you think the examples mentioned in the cover letter are right and need adding to the Annex?

 

etc. etc.

 

 

morganbach75

Sorry, the thread is quite sporadic and says the standard template can't be used, but only offers POPLA challenge, pay meter - neither seem to relate to these circumstances over signage - if familiar with the thread and someone can post a link to that template it would be appreciated. Especially if the logical case set out above is 'not a defence' although completely logical approach to me, I don't think it's a good idea fo me to be adapting a template for a different sort of case. There's clearly arbitrary conventions I don't understand. (also if anyone can explain why the court suggested I have 14 days (plus 5 for service?) we came to Oct 12th as submission deadline for a defence? is this definite?
Any help greatly appreciated.

nosferatu1001

It is not a defence. It is a witness statement
A defence is a series of legal arguments why the claim must fail. You have not provided any legal arguments. 
Yo ucan tel it is a WS, because it has exhibits. You dont exhibit in a defence, because it is merely an argument. 
You didnt read what happens if you acknowledge the claim ONLINE, as the newbies thread instructs you to do. You get an additional 14 days, meaning 28 plus 5. 
Go with the defences as advised, as a starting point, and adapt. If you didnt go to POPLA, then dont include that. 
Every defence somwhere talks about signage. 

Le_Kirk

Did you see this in the NEWBIE thread?

What about ParkingEye defences?
You can't use the template defence, as they don't add £60 to their claims and so the premise of 'abuse of process' can't be used against them. But they can be defended, so, look for recent examples by searching the forum.
Here is a 2018 defence where P/Eye use ANPR alongside a Pay & Display machine, then try to morph the £4 tariff into £100 damages:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/74850073#Comment_74850073"nofollow" href="https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/74254129#Comment_74254129" title="Link: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/74254129#Comment_74254129">https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/74254129#Comment_74254129

Try one of the two linked but obviously adapt to suit your particular circumstances.

KeithP

morganbach75 said:

...also if anyone can explain why the court suggested I have 14 days (plus 5 for service?) we came to Oct 12th as submission deadline for a defence? is this definite?

We did not conclude that 12th October was the due date for your Defence.

I stated:

...you have until 4pm on Monday 26th October 2020 to file your Defence.

I cannot explain why the court gave you wrong information, but I can confirm that my earlier post was correct.

The back of your County Court Claim Form tells you:

It goes on to say:

This is confirmed in the Money Claim Online (MCOL) - User Guide, which also explains that a Defence is never due on a non-working day.

On page 14 of that document it says:

How long does the defendant have to respond to my claim?

The court will send out a claim pack to each defendant once the claim has been issued and allows 5 calendar days from the date of issue for the service of the claim. Therefore the 'date of service' is the 5th calendar day after issue.

The defendant has 14 calendar days from the 'date of service' to file a response. If the last day for filing the response falls on a day that the court is not open (i.e. a weekend or public holiday), the court will allow the next full working day for a response. The defendant can extend the time to respond to 28 calendar days by filing an acknowledgment of service (AOS).

Redx

I would strongly recommend that you stop arguing , accept that the forum members here who have replied know what they are advising about , clear your mind like a whiteboard and start again

Just accept what you have been told and move on , you can spend the time debating and researching the topic when a defence based on legal arguments has been filed , after the draft has member approval

As I said earlier , your account is a witness statement and forms the basis of that WS in several months time , but the CCBC expect a legal defence to the POC and the pcn, the alleged contract

You have 33 days from the issue date on that claim form , all basic stuff and easy to research , KeithP has given due dates out hundreds of times on here and is rarely wrong , if ever !!

Start your draft defence , based on examples , do not start from scratch , I am assuming you want to win , so going it alone will prove costly because you have preconceived notions that are incorrect on almost every aspect thus far

We want you to win , but your biggest enemy so far states at you in a mirror , wise up and move on !

Some people need a reality check , this means you , so no apology for telling it like it is

morganbach75

Folks appreciating your time, am really struggling to get past the amount of exclamation marks. I've clearly misunderstood dates which were posted and also conflicted with the courts so have merely confirmed them.

If I've understood correctly: -
- I'll acknowledge the claim online - giving me until  26th October to file defence
- summarising lengthy responses above: I was in the right place and those two examples are the closest I will get to a unsigned parking bay for Parking Eye.
- If I amend these templates (based largely on different challenges) and delete what doesn't seem relevant, it should make sense, by someone taking a logical approach, but with no experience in the process.

Re; Newbies thread 2 - to make you aware I have attempted to read it but has clearly evolved as a product of hard work over such a long, but from a newcomers perspective, genuinely isn't clear with the amount of variations and exceptions and length - so to reassure you this isn't avoid the work. People will have to double check with you and you need not take it personally.
We do genuinely appreciate your time.

Redx

yes you are correct , but should bear in mind this is a consumer rights forum, not a legal aid forum, staffed by volunteers who give their input free of charge and the topic is complex

in theory there should be no legal sections at all, this is about parking and the codes of practice and the appeal routes , which will change when the new government CoP comes into force due to the 2019 Parking bill

there was a time when little or no court cases were discussed on here, when I came here 7.5 years ago for example

it is the best source of info on the net for this topic, even if it is complicated and does not make sense

Martin Lewis would tell you to seek legal advice from a lawyer, so whatever you get here is a bonus

given that you are up against the same company that took Barry Beavis to 3 courts and won 3 times, the last being the Supreme Court, you need very good legal arguments , they are very seasoned and very experienced in this field, you are not

so sometimes tough love is required, its not personal, not for us anyway

read what Bargepole said tonight about producing a defence

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6196982/civil-enforcement-ltd-template-defence-struck-out#latest

Coupon-mad

The second post of the NEWBIES  is currently longer than normal because I had to put the stuff about ALL NEWBIES doing the Govt consultations, first.  THIS IS TEMPORARY, BUT VITAL.  WE NEED YOU TO DO IT, PLEASE!

Then it has to talk about LBC stage, where you were meant to respond.  You could have got this cancelled at that stage...

Then it talks about how to do a SAR (all cases need that...it helps you see their hand).

Then it talks about doing the AOS to acknowledge a claim online, with a walk-through in pictures, what to tick.

Then it talks about Parking Eye defences because they are different.

Then it gives a template defence for all other cases.

Then it talks about the later stages - you will need to know all this!  Defence is not your only job...(don't ask about the DQ, when that arrives, please).

Then it talks about witness statements and evidence.  You will need that.

Then it talks about hearing tips.  You will need that too.  It has an extra section due to COVID this year (telephone hearings).

Then it talks about people who have missed defending a claim and need to set aside a CCJ. We win those cases, too and it is imperative people have that CCJ section to read, if that is their situation.

I can't make it any shorter at this time whole the Government Consultations are so vital (and complicated, so they need links and an explanation on how to comment and where).

- If I amend these templates (based largely on different challenges) and delete what doesn't seem relevant, it should make sense,

Yes but there shouldn't be much to delete...don't go deleting important things like no landowner authority.

Have you done your comments on the 2 tandem Govt consultations yet?  I posted about it above.  Only nine days left!

PLEASE be heard.