Missed PCN - Debt Collector Letter Received

SillyBilly2020

nosferatu1001 said:

Also you can prove the car park was busy 
your witness statement is proof. It's evidence. 

Good point - though is a court hearing where things are headed now that I've missed the 28 day appeal period with IP?

Or, could I argue that my first sight of the PCN was when they sent the SAR info (which is actually true!) and that was only a few days ago, so well within 28 days as far as I'm concerned?

Or would any such appeal just be ignored?

Redx

A SAR reply from a DPO is only ever going to give you your own data , they are legally obliged to NOT give you somebody elses data , be it landowner authority of landowner contracts etc

In a nutshell , you can ask , they won't give it , so they ignored your request for those extras !! Tough , it's not going to happen no matter how many times you ask

It does form the basis of your witness statement and maybe a part of your defence too

Those answers should be with you at the WS plus Exhibits stage of any court claim , which is months and months away , if at all

Be realistic about what you ask for , accept that in a game of poker the opposition will not show you all their cards , it's not going to happen for a long time yet

SillyBilly2020

Redx said:

A SAR reply from a DPO is only ever going to give you your own data , they are legally obliged to NOT give you somebody elses data , be it landowner authority of landowner contracts etc

In a nutshell , you can ask , they won't give it , so they ignored your request for those extras !! Tough , it's not going to happen no matter how many times you ask

It does form the basis of your witness statement and maybe a part of your defence too

Those answers should be with you at the WS plus Exhibits stage of any court claim , which is months and months away , if at all

Be realistic about what you ask for , accept that in a game of poker the opposition will not show you all their cards , it's not going to happen for a long time yet

Fair enough, but I included those questions as guided by the advice on this forum.  Now I'm being castigated for it.

Frankly - and I really don't mean this as a criticism - but I don't really know what I'm doing, which is why I'm here asking for help.  When I post questions about what to do or what I'm thinking of doing I get criticised for not understanding what to do - well, yes, if I was as all-knowing as the regulars on here seem to be then I wouldn't be here would I ?  I've still not had an answer to whether it's worthwhile appealing to Initial Parking more than 28 days after the date of the PCN, but if I assume that silence on this question means 'no' then as I understand things the next stage is a letter before action as the legal process begins.  So, I've been reading up on what to do and have been learning all about Practice Direction and all the games to be played out that will/could end up in a Judge's bundle when/if it comes to court.  And you know what - it's all very time-consuming, tedious and not a little intimidating.  In fact, it's the sort of thing that might well be worth £100 just to make it all go away.  I really don't need any of this in my life.

I appreciate that the 'regulars' on here have seen and heard it all before and are probably fed up of hearing the same old questions because someone hasn't spent hours reading all the advice on here and elsewhere.  But spare a thought for the first timer caught up in this whole parking scam thing who doesn't have a clue.

Redx

I am not castigating you , I am merely pointing out that yes you can ask but they only have to comply with the GDPR and are allowed to ignore your additional questions , it's a fact !

If you wish to send in a belated appeal then do so , they can only say no

But don't blow off your own toes with the "Me , Myself , My & I" words , use

The driver

The keeper

No blabbing about who was driving , even by mistake , especially if they failed to comply with POFA. If they complied with POFA then it's a moot point anyway

It is clear that you now understand the business model due to your reply

It's tough love , learn the ropes , we were all like you once , and I have never had a private parking ticket from a private company , but have helped to fight and win a few over the last 7.5 years

Redx

SillyBilly2020 said:

nosferatu1001 said:

Also you can prove the car park was busy 
your witness statement is proof. It's evidence. 

Good point - though is a court hearing where things are headed now that I've missed the 28 day appeal period with IP?

Or, could I argue that my first sight of the PCN was when they sent the SAR info (which is actually true!) and that was only a few days ago, so well within 28 days as far as I'm concerned?

Or would any such appeal just be ignored?

The claimant only has to prove it was sent , they do not have to prove if or when it was received

A post by Johnnersh last week on here drove that point home , that sending it out is sufficient , so they do not care when you first saw it , it's irrelevant

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/77749594#Comment_77749594

Coupon-mad

They will not accept your appeal but it will look better in court later on, if they sue.  That's the only reason to send a late appeal.

SillyBilly2020

OK, PCN appeal draft #2 . . . . all comments gratefully received.

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PCN Appeals, Initial Parking Ltd, address etc.

Dear Sir or Madam,

As the registered keeper of vehicle XXXXXXXX, I recently received a ‘Demand for Payment – Unpaid Parking Charge Notice’ from Debt Recovery Plus on your behalf for PCN:XXXXXXXX dated 11/07/2020 at Fistral Beach, Newquay, TR7 1HY.

Because I did not receive any such PCN or NTK, I requested further information from you on 8th October 2020 and received your response on 9th November 2020.

Now being better informed about the circumstances of your PCN I am writing to appeal this charge on the following basis:

1. There is no legal requirement to name the driver. There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give the invitation to keeper in the format prescribed by section 9 (2) (e) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.
2. The driver did not fail to pay for parking time. Payment was made via ApplePay (Booking ref XXXXXXX) in the amount of £8.60 from XXXXXX at XXXX to XXXXXX at XXXX, a total of 5 hours 1 minute. The time the vehicle was parked did not exceed the time paid for parking and there is no evidence to the contrary.
3. Your ANPR system only records times of entry to and exit from the car park and not the time parked.
4. I refer to the case PE v Ms X (Altrincham 17 March 2014) in relation to the same car park where the judge ruled that the 31 minutes the defendant spent driving round the crowded car park did not classify as 'parking'. The ANPR evidence only shows the time of entry and exit to the car park, and not the true time parked and therefore is no evidence of any contravention of the terms and conditions.

Given the above, I do not expect to hear from you again, or your agents, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours etc . . . .

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I appreciate they will ignore this but at least it shows I'm trying to deal with the matter.

Incidentally, it looks like I probably will now be moving to France to work at the end of December.  I don't yet have a postal address so I guess it's not worth mentioning this until I know this and can formally inform Initial Parking of my address change.  So perhaps this appeal will help to drag things out until then?

SillyBilly2020

Also, I found this article about Fistral beach parking.  I know it's quite old but I found the explanation of the grace period quite interesting:

Jon Briant, manager at the Fistral Surf Centre, said: “The car park is now done by cameras so you have to make your mind up what you want to do. There is a 20- minute grace period to decide whether you are going to stay.

“The times a car enters and leaves the car park are recorded by cameras so the onus is on the driver of the car to make a decision whether to leave within the grace period or buy a ticket.

“If a driver decided to stay then for example if you take five minutes to buy the ticket they will have 15 minutes past their ticket deadline to leave the car park. The driver must ensure they pay the right amount.

https://www.newquayvoice.co.uk/news/5/article/3428/ 

In my case, the vehicle was recorded as being within the car park for 5 hours 18 minutes and I paid to park for 5 hours 1 minute, so based on that explanation I was well within the grace period, even by Initial parking's own evidence.

Is there any mileage in this?

Also, is it worth writing to the land owner at Fistral Beach?  From what I can find, it's the same person as quoted in that article, or rather his company Britannic Industries that leases the land from the council.   http://www.parking-prankster.com/fistral-beach.html

(Edited to add link to quoted article)

Umkomaas

SillyBilly2020 said:

Also, I found this article about Fistral beach parking.  I know it's quite old but I found the explanation of the grace period quite interesting:

Jon Briant, manager at the Fistral Surf Centre, said: “The car park is now done by cameras so you have to make your mind up what you want to do. There is a 20- minute grace period to decide whether you are going to stay.

“The times a car enters and leaves the car park are recorded by cameras so the onus is on the driver of the car to make a decision whether to leave within the grace period or buy a ticket.

“If a driver decided to stay then for example if you take five minutes to buy the ticket they will have 15 minutes past their ticket deadline to leave the car park. The driver must ensure they pay the right amount.

In my case, the vehicle was recorded as being within the car park for 5 hours 18 minutes and I paid to park for 5 hours 1 minute, so based on that explanation I was well within the grace period, even by Initial parking's own evidence.

Is there any mileage in this?

Also, is it worth writing to the land owner at Fistral Beach?  From what I can find, it's the same person as quoted in that article, or rather his company Britannic Industries that leases the land from the council.   http://www.parking-prankster.com/fistral-beach.html

You can try, you'll never know unless you do, but this has been and continues to be a well-raped site by a succession of parking firms over the years, so there will have been many, many complaints during that time. I suspect they're pretty immune to them now, and I don't recall many landowner cancellations at Fistral. 

You might consider, rather than a request to cancel, whether a better tack might be to ask, on the basis that you will be visiting once lockdown has ended and you guess it's going to be very busy, just what the current grace period is. Quote the previous statement about 20 minutes and ask them to confirm that it's still applicable - especially given the distance from/to the entry/exit cameras and the actual parking area. 

A confirmation might be a useful piece of paper for you. 

SillyBilly2020

Thanks.  I've decided to cut to the chase and am going to send the following based on stating the grace period is 20 minutes, leaving them to dispute it if they can.  So basically two defences - car not parked for more than the paid-for time (they can't prove otherwise) and car not being in the car park for longer than the paid-for time plus 20 mins grace period.  That should at least flush out what they think is the grace period.

I guess I should wait for their reply before writing to Jon Briant at Britanic Industries, the car park owner?

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Intro blah, blah

1.    The driver did not fail to pay for parking time. Payment was made via ApplePay (Booking ref xxxxxx) in the amount of £8.60 from xxxxx to xxxxxx, a total of 5 hours 1 minute. The time the vehicle was parked did not exceed the time paid for parking and there is no evidence to the contrary.

2.    Your ANPR system only records times of entry to and exit from the car park and not the time parked. There is therefore no evidence of the time the vehicle was parked and therefore no evidence of the vehicle exceeding the duration of the parking time that was paid for.  I refer you to the case PE v Ms X (Altrincham 17 March 2014) in relation to the same car park where the judge ruled that the time the defendant spent driving round the crowded car park did not classify as 'parking'.

3.    Your ANPR system shows that the vehicle entered the car park at xxxxxx and exited at xxxxxx.  This is a total time of 05:18:29.  The grace period at Fistral Beach car park (to allow time for reading signage, driving around to find a parking space, purchasing a parking ticket, queueing to exit the car park, etc.) is a total of 20 minutes.  The parking time purchased by the driver (see 1 above) plus the grace period amounts to a total time of 5 hours & 21 minutes, which exceeds the time the vehicle was in the car park and therefore there was no unpaid tariff time as alleged by your PCN.

In summary, the evidence shows that the correct amount of parking time was paid for and that the vehicle time in the car park did not exceed the paid-for time plus the required grace period.  Furthermore, there is no evidence to show that the vehicle was parked for longer than the time paid for, something that your ANPR system cannot determine.

Given the above, please cancel this erroneous PCN and remove all my personal details from your records.

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