Missed PCN - Debt Collector Letter Received

beamerguy

The OP should watch this BBC watchdog video about ANPR and the comments by the new CEO of the BPA, Andrew Pester.  ... Pester waffles his way through the interview and admits ANPR is not 100%
Pester refers to the new code of practice as a robust code of practice ? ... in a nutshell what Pester is saying is that the BPA is not robust, they are a pointless set up ANTI the motorist and their only purpose is to collect funding from parking companies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIaKMkO3YVM&ab_channel=tizrovideo

SillyBilly2020

Fruitcake said:

ANPR does not record parking time, only time on site. This car park has been a scam site for years because of the layout and how long it takes to get from one end to the other before the parking period begins, and how long it takes to get to the exit once the parking period has ended.
Parking scammers love ANPR for this reason amongst others, but the UK Government does not permit its use in council or local authority car parks because it is not fit for purpose.

As already advised, ignore powerless debt collectors, and send your rectification notice to the scammer's DPO once you have your new overseas address. Instruct the DPO to erase (use that specific word) your old data and replace it with your new address for service. Include proof of residency such as a lease or utility bill.

Initial are relatively new kids on the estate and as far as I know have yet to take anyone to court.
If they try, then come back here for further advice. There are a couple of useful Fistral threads, one of which includes images of signs and a copy of the scammers contract to scam. The link below will take you to the post that includes that information should you need it later.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/76203122/#Comment_76203122

Sadly, my planned move to France later this month will no longer be happening (most probably)   

Covid19, quarantine rules, lockdowns and Brexit confusion has made he forthcoming ski season so unpredictable that my (UK) employer has decided not to rent their usual chalets because of lack of bookings and the French owners are happy to release them from their bookings because they can rent them directly to French nationals for self-catering ski holidays instead (no quarantine issues, no staff-mixing-with-guests issues etc).  So, not only won't I be managing half-a-dozen chalets this season I won't even be employed in France on 31st December when Brexit transition happens so I won't get 'preferred status' when applying for future ski seasons and will have to go through whatever work-visa requirements will be required in future.  To top it all, I recently discovered that Royal Mail DID NOT register my renewed postal redirection, even though I paid in full, so I missed a DART charge reminder on a recent trip and have been issued with a fine for that!  Royal Mail were apologetic and have 'kindly' offered to being a new redirection period at no additional cost because of the one I paid for previously but which they didn't actually enact!

Apologies for the rant, nothing to do with PPC bandits I know, but it should give an insight to my current mindset, which is one of just wanting all this carp to go away and the thought of months and months of arguing the toss with PCN scammers (judging by the many stories on here) is making me think that £100 sounds a bit of a bargain to end it all.

[Deep breath]

So, with the French address change angle looking like a dead duck, I guess an appeal is my only option (other than paying up), but as far as I can see, it's all down to being argumentative about the 'reasonableness' of their methods, rather than having some 'slam-dunk' gotcha, because their evidence to date shows the car in question to have exited the car park after the grace period (assuming it is 10 minutes).

From what I've read so far (and there is sooooo much of it!) I can argue the grace period is not agreed with the landowner, that the ticket machine and ANPR camera clocks are not synchronised, that I left my parking space within the purchased ticket time but was delayed from exiting the car park, and probably some other points I've not yet discovered . . . . but nothing is definitive, it's all just arguing and I don't really have the time to marshall my arguments or spend time defending my corner in court when I really need to be looking for a job instead.

Apologies, again - I've had a very bad day.

SillyBilly2020

Coupon-mad said:

 So the car left 12 minutes after the ticket expiry time.

If the ANPR clock was sychronised with the PDT machine, which it never is...so DO NOT accept that timing as true.

Good point, but how can I prove the clocks were not accurate?  I can claim they are not, Initial will likely say they are, neither side can provide indisputible evidence either way, so what can an appeal hearing or a Judge make of that?

Ferrybird

I believe that the onus would be on them to prove that it is accurate in support of their (currently hypothetical) claim, not on you to disprove. You would point to things such as the post by @beamerguy above plus ANPR related info in the forum would help your case.

But....you don't have a court case and may never get one. I suspect you're worrying and catastrophising because you've had an awful day, which is understandable. 

Ignore the debt collector letters. They're designed to intimidate but they have no power. If a letter before claim arrives that is the time to act.

For the dart charge take a look at PePiPoo forum and bailiffadviceonline.co.uk. Do NOT ignore debt letters about this charge as it is very different. 

Coupon-mad

SillyBilly2020 said:

Coupon-mad said:

 So the car left 12 minutes after the ticket expiry time.

If the ANPR clock was sychronised with the PDT machine, which it never is...so DO NOT accept that timing as true.

Good point, but how can I prove the clocks were not accurate?  I can claim they are not, Initial will likely say they are, neither side can provide indisputible evidence either way, so what can an appeal hearing or a Judge make of that?

It's not your case to prove, it's theirs, but here's an example that proves ANPR and PDT machines are not synchronised (they never are, they are separate systems):

https://imgur.com/a/LY5Ao1k 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6084617/last-minute-defense-for-unfair-pcn&page=2  

SillyBilly2020

Ferrybird said:

I believe that the onus would be on them to prove that it is accurate in support of their (currently hypothetical) claim, not on you to disprove. You would point to things such as the post by @beamerguy above plus ANPR related info in the forum would help your case.

But....you don't have a court case and may never get one. I suspect you're worrying and catastrophising because you've had an awful day, which is understandable. 

Ignore the debt collector letters. They're designed to intimidate but they have no power. If a letter before claim arrives that is the time to act.

For the dart charge take a look at PePiPoo forum and bailiffadviceonline.co.uk. Do NOT ignore debt letters about this charge as it is very different. 

Yes, yesterday was a bad day, but onwards and upwards.

I'm ok with the debt collector letters and am happily ignoring them.  I'll spend some more time reading up on defences while waiting for any letter before action arrives.

The Dartcharge thing is all dealt with and paid.  My own stupid fault really, just clear forgot, though Royal Mail's redirection screw-up didn't exactly help matters, but that's all history now.

Only the Fistral PCN to deal with now . . . and all for the sake of two minutes!

SillyBilly2020

I'm working on a letter to dispute this PCN using the following points:

1. As the registered keeper, I am not liable for any PCN and I have no obligation to divulge the driver at the time of the PCN.

2. Your response to my SAR was incomplete and did not state the exit grace period or the landowner

3. The car park was very busy on the day and it took me some considerable time to exit the car park.  Queueing to leave is not 'parking'.

4. Your entry/exit photos are timed to the second but the ticket machine is only timed to the minute.  Assuming a ticket 'minute' lasts for 60 seconds (ie x:00s to x:59s), your exit photo was taken 11 minutes 44 seconds after my ticket expiry time.

5. Assuming an exit grace period of 10 minutes, your exit photo was taken just 1 minute 44 seconds after my paid-for ticket plus grace period.

6. Given that the ANPR exit camera and the ticket machine have separate and independent timers, I suggest that 1min 44 secs cannot be regarded as an accurate figure.

7. A penalty charge of £100 for an overstay of 1 min 44 secs is wholly disproportionate

In summary - As keeper I'm not liable for the PCN, 5 hours 2 minutes and 59 seconds of parking was paid for but your ANPR cameras only record the car park entry/exit times and not the actual parking time, the alleged overstay of 1 min 44 secs cannot be regarded as reliable because of unsynchronised ANPR and ticket machine clocks.

Obviously, the above points need formatting and polishing into a formal letter, but have I missed anything or included anything I shouldn't?  Actually, given point 1, is anything else actually relevant?

Finally, given that I've missed the 28 day appeal deadline, is there actually any point in writing to Initial Parking anyway?

Coupon-mad

Why on earth are you contacting the debt collector and blabbing about who parked/was driving?

Spot the issue:

1. As the registered keeper, I am not liable for any PCN and I have no obligation to divulge the driver at the time of the PCN.

OK, but oh dear,. this is why people DO NOT write their own 'appeals' min this forum...

and it took me some considerable time to exit the car park.

This also makes no sense in that none of that is your personal data:

Your response to my SAR was incomplete and did not state the exit grace period or the landowner

nosferatu1001

Also you can prove the car park was busy 
your witness statement is proof. It's evidence. 

SillyBilly2020

Coupon-mad said:

Why on earth are you contacting the debt collector and blabbing about who parked/was driving?

Spot the issue:

1. As the registered keeper, I am not liable for any PCN and I have no obligation to divulge the driver at the time of the PCN.

OK, but oh dear,. this is why people DO NOT write their own 'appeals' min this forum...

and it took me some considerable time to exit the car park.

This also makes no sense in that none of that is your personal data:

Your response to my SAR was incomplete and did not state the exit grace period or the landowner

Where did I say I was appealing to the debt collector?  I've already confirmed that I'm ignoring the debt collector.

I was asking if there is any point appealing to Initial Parking given that I've missed their 28 day appeal deadline, for the reasons previously explained.

My SAR letter (based on an example from this forum and posted previously) specifically asked them about the grace period and the landowner, so I thought it reasonable to point out they didn't answer those questions.  I know they are not 'personal data' but they were legitimate questions that they did not answer. 

Fair point about the 'me' faux pas, and thank you for pointing it out, but isn't that the whole point of this forum - to catch mistakes?