Website refuses to refund cancelled preorders paid for upfront with PayPal.

Golgo13

Thanks everyone. So, as I had believed, I would be within my rights to cancel the preorder and expect a full refund back into my PayPal account. I can refuse to accept store credit as a stores T&C’s do not supersede contract law? 

theonlywayisup

bris said:

theonlywayisup said:

Assuming the purchase is covered by the Buyer Protection Programme, why not just open a dispute on Paypal?

Because there is nothing to dispute with Paypal. The seller has done nothing wrong as far as Paypal is concerned.  The goods aren't missing or snad, the seller isn't a con man it's a legit business deal that would be honoured.

The OP's rights lie with the CCR's but Paypal are not involved in this.

The OP's right of course lie with consumer legislation.  Paypal are the payment provider so they are involved.  The OP has already tried to gain a refund in line with their consumer rights and this appears to be denied by the seller.  That doesn't sound like a legit business to me.  

liggerz87

I know this doesn't help but before I preordered with xbox online and I decided to cancel and they let me they twnd to charge 5 days before realse

inholms

I need to share this with you. PayPal and Facebook are involved in a huge scam. I am one of thousands who have been conned. Here’s how it works. I read a ‘pop up’ add on Facebook. It’s an interesting bit of kit, in my case a high tech kitchen chopping board. $30. I paid through PayPal and two months later a crude useless wooden board arrived from China. Its happening all round the world. I complained and PayPal refunded me. However, they normally don’t as can be seen on their own blog site https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Disputes-and-Limitations/Fraud-Dongguan-Shunfa-Logistics-Co-Ltd/td-p/2014870 Makes interesting reading (Why are they allowing this site to run? Are they so arrogant they can’t be touched?) I have recieved other useless junk items not as advertised and they have refused a refund.
I’m convinced that as PayPal and Facebook are involved in fraud/money laundering and this need exposing. Web shopping is a wonderful thing. Why are these major players destroying peoples trust and confidence? I just don’t get it.

Aylesbury_Duck

inholms said:

I need to share this with you. PayPal and Facebook are involved in a huge scam. I am one of thousands who have been conned. Here’s how it works. I read a ‘pop up’ add on Facebook. It’s an interesting bit of kit, in my case a high tech kitchen chopping board. $30. I paid through PayPal and two months later a crude useless wooden board arrived from China. Its happening all round the world. I complained and PayPal refunded me. However, they normally don’t as can be seen on their own blog site https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Disputes-and-Limitations/Fraud-Dongguan-Shunfa-Logistics-Co-Ltd/td-p/2014870 Makes interesting reading (Why are they allowing this site to run? Are they so arrogant they can’t be touched?) I have recieved other useless junk items not as advertised and they have refused a refund.
I’m convinced that as PayPal and Facebook are involved in fraud/money laundering and this need exposing. Web shopping is a wonderful thing. Why are these major players destroying peoples trust and confidence? I just don’t get it.

"Things bought off Facebook and paid for by Paypal aren't always what they seem" shocker.

Stop falling for rubbish pop-up adverts.
Stop buying things that are too good to be true to save a few quid.
Buy proper things from proper retailers using proper forms of payment and you won't have these sorts of problems.  It's not difficult.

visidigi

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

visidigi said:

Day_Of_The_Doris said:

visidigi said:

Depends on the terms of the cancellation. a Pre-order is an order, so if they say if you pay with paypal and you cancel its refunded via credit then this is not a breach of rights.

If it's a UK based website and the order was made by a consumer, then I disagree and it is more than likely a breach of rights under the Consumer Contracts regulations.
These regulations are very specific in that a consumer who cancels IAW the reg's must be refunded by the same method as they paid unless they expressly agree otherwise (a term of a website is not an agreement) and a store credit is not a refund.
If the seller in question doesn't want to pay Paypal fees, they shouldn't choose to accept payment this way in the first place.

That applies to refundable purchases. The term in effect here is that if you choose to pay by payment process X then the consequences are Y. The OP hasn't yet said if this is the only method by which they can purchase. 

The buyer is choosing to cancel the transaction, not the seller. A very important distinction in this scenario.

Not sure what you mean? 

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/29/made

(2) The cancellation period begins when the contract is entered into and ends in accordance with regulation 30 or 31.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/34/made

(7) The trader must make the reimbursement using the same means of payment as the consumer used for the initial transaction, unless the consumer has expressly agreed otherwise.

Seems pretty clear to me?

That last sentence (the bit I bolded). unless the consumer has expressly agreed otherwise. Sounds like the T&C's resulted in the buyer agreeing otherwise...no?

George_Michael

visidigi said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/34/made

(7) The trader must make the reimbursement using the same means of payment as the consumer used for the initial transaction, unless the consumer has expressly agreed otherwise.

Seems pretty clear to me?

That last sentence (the bit I bolded). unless the consumer has expressly agreed otherwise. Sounds like the T&C's resulted in the buyer agreeing otherwise...no?

No.
As far as contracts are concerned, there are two types of consent, implied and Express. Express consent means that  you have specifically agreed or responded to a particular point or question where as implied consent simply assumes that you have agreed because you've not stated or done anything to show otherwise.

One good example of this is also found in the Consumer contracts regulations regarding additional payments or purchases from pre-ticked boxes.

40.—(1) Under a contract between a trader and a consumer, no payment is payable in addition to the remuneration agreed for the trader’s main obligation unless, before the consumer became bound by the contract, the trader obtained the consumer’s express consent.

(2) There is no express consent (if there would otherwise be) for the purposes of this paragraph if consent is inferred from the consumer not changing a default option (such as a pre-ticked box on a website).

So even if something is written into a contract, if express consent is required for it to be binding then it must be brought to the attention of the consumer and they must expressly agree to it.
I know the above example doesn't cover the OP's situation but it does show what is meant by express consent.

inholms

Aylesbury_Duck said:

inholms said:

I need to share this with you. PayPal and Facebook are involved in a huge scam. I am one of thousands who have been conned. Here’s how it works. I read a ‘pop up’ add on Facebook. It’s an interesting bit of kit, in my case a high tech kitchen chopping board. $30. I paid through PayPal and two months later a crude useless wooden board arrived from China. Its happening all round the world. I complained and PayPal refunded me. However, they normally don’t as can be seen on their own blog site https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Disputes-and-Limitations/Fraud-Dongguan-Shunfa-Logistics-Co-Ltd/td-p/2014870 Makes interesting reading (Why are they allowing this site to run? Are they so arrogant they can’t be touched?) I have recieved other useless junk items not as advertised and they have refused a refund.
I’m convinced that as PayPal and Facebook are involved in fraud/money laundering and this need exposing. Web shopping is a wonderful thing. Why are these major players destroying peoples trust and confidence? I just don’t get it.

"Things bought off Facebook and paid for by Paypal aren't always what they seem" shocker.

Stop falling for rubbish pop-up adverts.
Stop buying things that are too good to be true to save a few quid.
Buy proper things from proper retailers using proper forms of payment and you won't have these sorts of problems.  It's not difficult.

No need to be patronising. The point is that there is a scam going on here supported by the very two companies that have the power to stop it. There behaviour is undermining the usefulness of internet shopping. Instead of wagging the school master finger why not ask ‘How and why are Facebook and PayPal getting away with this.  

Aylesbury_Duck

inholms said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

inholms said:

I need to share this with you. PayPal and Facebook are involved in a huge scam. I am one of thousands who have been conned. Here’s how it works. I read a ‘pop up’ add on Facebook. It’s an interesting bit of kit, in my case a high tech kitchen chopping board. $30. I paid through PayPal and two months later a crude useless wooden board arrived from China. Its happening all round the world. I complained and PayPal refunded me. However, they normally don’t as can be seen on their own blog site https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Disputes-and-Limitations/Fraud-Dongguan-Shunfa-Logistics-Co-Ltd/td-p/2014870 Makes interesting reading (Why are they allowing this site to run? Are they so arrogant they can’t be touched?) I have recieved other useless junk items not as advertised and they have refused a refund.
I’m convinced that as PayPal and Facebook are involved in fraud/money laundering and this need exposing. Web shopping is a wonderful thing. Why are these major players destroying peoples trust and confidence? I just don’t get it.

"Things bought off Facebook and paid for by Paypal aren't always what they seem" shocker.

Stop falling for rubbish pop-up adverts.
Stop buying things that are too good to be true to save a few quid.
Buy proper things from proper retailers using proper forms of payment and you won't have these sorts of problems.  It's not difficult.

No need to be patronising. The point is that there is a scam going on here supported by the very two companies that have the power to stop it. There behaviour is undermining the usefulness of internet shopping. Instead of wagging the school master finger why not ask ‘How and why are Facebook and PayPal getting away with this.  

My post wasn't addressed to you directly (too late for that) but to other people, to stop them falling for this nonsense.

As to how FB and PP are getting away with this, the answer is sadly that there is no shortage of people willing to respond to these pop-up adverts and buy dubious products that are for sale on a social media site, thus driving views, clicks and revenue.  You don't pay for FB so how do they make money?  As the saying goes, if you're not paying for the product, you are the product.  20 years ago people were falling for "bargains" out of the back of a transit van from a bloke with a loudhailer on the high street.  This is simply the web-based equivalent. 

inholms

Aylesbury_Duck said:

inholms said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

inholms said:

I need to share this with you. PayPal and Facebook are involved in a huge scam. I am one of thousands who have been conned. Here’s how it works. I read a ‘pop up’ add on Facebook. It’s an interesting bit of kit, in my case a high tech kitchen chopping board. $30. I paid through PayPal and two months later a crude useless wooden board arrived from China. Its happening all round the world. I complained and PayPal refunded me. However, they normally don’t as can be seen on their own blog site https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Disputes-and-Limitations/Fraud-Dongguan-Shunfa-Logistics-Co-Ltd/td-p/2014870 Makes interesting reading (Why are they allowing this site to run? Are they so arrogant they can’t be touched?) I have recieved other useless junk items not as advertised and they have refused a refund.
I’m convinced that as PayPal and Facebook are involved in fraud/money laundering and this need exposing. Web shopping is a wonderful thing. Why are these major players destroying peoples trust and confidence? I just don’t get it.

"Things bought off Facebook and paid for by Paypal aren't always what they seem" shocker.

Stop falling for rubbish pop-up adverts.
Stop buying things that are too good to be true to save a few quid.
Buy proper things from proper retailers using proper forms of payment and you won't have these sorts of problems.  It's not difficult.

No need to be patronising. The point is that there is a scam going on here supported by the very two companies that have the power to stop it. There behaviour is undermining the usefulness of internet shopping. Instead of wagging the school master finger why not ask ‘How and why are Facebook and PayPal getting away with this.  

My post wasn't addressed to you directly (too late for that) but to other people, to stop them falling for this nonsense.

As to how FB and PP are getting away with this, the answer is sadly that there is no shortage of people willing to respond to these pop-up adverts and buy dubious products that are for sale on a social media site, thus driving views, clicks and revenue.  You don't pay for FB so how do they make money?  As the saying goes, if you're not paying for the product, you are the product.  20 years ago people were falling for "bargains" out of the back of a transit van from a bloke with a loudhailer on the high street.  This is simply the web-based equivalent. 

Aylesbury_Duck said:

inholms said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

inholms said:

I need to share this with you. PayPal and Facebook are involved in a huge scam. I am one of thousands who have been conned. Here’s how it works. I read a ‘pop up’ add on Facebook. It’s an interesting bit of kit, in my case a high tech kitchen chopping board. $30. I paid through PayPal and two months later a crude useless wooden board arrived from China. Its happening all round the world. I complained and PayPal refunded me. However, they normally don’t as can be seen on their own blog site https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Disputes-and-Limitations/Fraud-Dongguan-Shunfa-Logistics-Co-Ltd/td-p/2014870 Makes interesting reading (Why are they allowing this site to run? Are they so arrogant they can’t be touched?) I have recieved other useless junk items not as advertised and they have refused a refund.
I’m convinced that as PayPal and Facebook are involved in fraud/money laundering and this need exposing. Web shopping is a wonderful thing. Why are these major players destroying peoples trust and confidence? I just don’t get it.

"Things bought off Facebook and paid for by Paypal aren't always what they seem" shocker.

Stop falling for rubbish pop-up adverts.
Stop buying things that are too good to be true to save a few quid.
Buy proper things from proper retailers using proper forms of payment and you won't have these sorts of problems.  It's not difficult.

No need to be patronising. The point is that there is a scam going on here supported by the very two companies that have the power to stop it. There behaviour is undermining the usefulness of internet shopping. Instead of wagging the school master finger why not ask ‘How and why are Facebook and PayPal getting away with this.  

My post wasn't addressed to you directly (too late for that) but to other people, to stop them falling for this nonsense.

As to how FB and PP are getting away with this, the answer is sadly that there is no shortage of people willing to respond to these pop-up adverts and buy dubious products that are for sale on a social media site, thus driving views, clicks and revenue.  You don't pay for FB so how do they make money?  As the saying goes, if you're not paying for the product, you are the product.  20 years ago people were falling for "bargains" out of the back of a transit van from a bloke with a loudhailer on the high street.  This is simply the web-based equivalent. 

Facebook ARE getting revenue from the scamers. In the face of so many people saying they have been ripped off, why is Facebook allowing these crooks to advertise on their site? This behaviour is destroying what could be a wonderful way of trading.