Anyone Not Suffering During this?

Takmon

Nebulous2 said:

Takmon said:

Nebulous2 said:

I spend much of my time talking to people on the front-line however, who have been dealing with death and devastation for months. It has been a bit of a rollercoaster emotionally, with some dreadfully sad tales, but a lot of humanity in the midst of it. 

In the UK around 620,000 people die each year and Covid19 has been responsible for 41,586 deaths so that's only a 6.7% increase in deaths. I can't see how anyone who works in the NHS and care and are used to seeing people die would be effected much more than usual by a small increase. 

This is probably an unpopular opinion but i think saying people are "suffering" by working in these jobs is quite an exaggeration when this is the role the carry out normally anyway.  

Your post makes me realise why I don’t normally post about work in this forum, and how spectacularly lacking in compassion some people can be. You’ll note I didn’t use the word ‘suffering’ it’s you who added that in. 

Within a care home a majority of the staff will be young people, particularly women, who often have had no prior exposure to death. They are introduced to that and supported through it, carefully and slowly, at least in the good homes. They often won’t be on shift when it happens, they will be told about it, but won’t see it or have to deal with it, until they are ready. There may well be less than a death a month in people they know and have developed a relationship with. They come into care because they care, in the main, and losing people they have known, often for months, is difficult. 

During the worst period in care homes that shifted. At its peak 30% of staff were sick or isolating. The death rate was 5 times what it would normally be, for 2-3 months. The normal support mechanisms crashed and people with limited experience had to deal with things they wouldn’t normally see.  Seeing deaths that were not what they were used to, and were often particularly difficult wasn’t good. 

They also had to deal with distressed, frustrated and angry relatives. Ones whose family members were dying and they couldn’t see them, ones whose family member had died and they blamed the staff for killing them, ones whose family members were fine, but they didn’t believe that, because they couldn’t see them. 

All the time they were worried about catching it themselves, and occasionally had a colleague who died of coronavirus. 

So yes - coping with all that, while wearing a level of PPE that they weren’t used to, including masks for 12 hours at a time, when some people won’t even wear them in a shop, was demanding. Maybe you weren’t far off when you said ‘suffering.’ 

Well if you look at the thread title it poses the question "Anyone Not Suffering During This?" so that's why i used that word and used your post as an example of why i don't think people are suffering. 

Well first you say the majority of people working care home are not used to seeing death and then go on to say that they won't be on shift when it happens, so you are somehow suggesting that deaths due to Covid19 are more likely to happen when inexperienced people are on shift compared to other deaths which is absurd. 
Dealing with death is part of the job and all staff members should be trained up on this.

Looking at the figures it says that 26% of all deaths in England take place in care homes so that is 161,200 per year or 442 per day. Between the period 2 March to 12 June 2020 there were 66,112 deaths in care homes (including ones due to Covid19) so that is 648 deaths per day, which is a 47% increase and not a 500% increase as you have stated. 
So yes there was some increase but as this is part of the job anyway any decent care home and it's staff should have dealt with this without suffering. 

I'm not trying to belittle the work they do i'm just being realistic and it doesn't help anyone by exaggerating the facts saying the staff are suffering, struggling to cope and there is a 5 times increase in deaths in care home when that is a complete lie and just worries the families of the care home residents. 
I personally know people who work in decent care home and the way they have dealt with it all has been exceptional and they would not be happy with the way you are describing how they have been struggling to deal with it. 

Death figures in care homes sources: 
https://www.england.nhs.uk/london/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2020/03/SWL-care-home-data-pack-2019.pdf

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/deathsinvolvingcovid19inthecaresectorenglandandwales/deathsoccurringupto12june2020andregisteredupto20june2020provisional

Jojocat

So-ros, william gates?

Nebulous2

Takmon said:

Nebulous2 said:

Takmon said:

Nebulous2 said:

I spend much of my time talking to people on the front-line however, who have been dealing with death and devastation for months. It has been a bit of a rollercoaster emotionally, with some dreadfully sad tales, but a lot of humanity in the midst of it. 

In the UK around 620,000 people die each year and Covid19 has been responsible for 41,586 deaths so that's only a 6.7% increase in deaths. I can't see how anyone who works in the NHS and care and are used to seeing people die would be effected much more than usual by a small increase. 

This is probably an unpopular opinion but i think saying people are "suffering" by working in these jobs is quite an exaggeration when this is the role the carry out normally anyway.  

Your post makes me realise why I don’t normally post about work in this forum, and how spectacularly lacking in compassion some people can be. You’ll note I didn’t use the word ‘suffering’ it’s you who added that in. 

Within a care home a majority of the staff will be young people, particularly women, who often have had no prior exposure to death. They are introduced to that and supported through it, carefully and slowly, at least in the good homes. They often won’t be on shift when it happens, they will be told about it, but won’t see it or have to deal with it, until they are ready. There may well be less than a death a month in people they know and have developed a relationship with. They come into care because they care, in the main, and losing people they have known, often for months, is difficult. 

During the worst period in care homes that shifted. At its peak 30% of staff were sick or isolating. The death rate was 5 times what it would normally be, for 2-3 months. The normal support mechanisms crashed and people with limited experience had to deal with things they wouldn’t normally see.  Seeing deaths that were not what they were used to, and were often particularly difficult wasn’t good. 

They also had to deal with distressed, frustrated and angry relatives. Ones whose family members were dying and they couldn’t see them, ones whose family member had died and they blamed the staff for killing them, ones whose family members were fine, but they didn’t believe that, because they couldn’t see them. 

All the time they were worried about catching it themselves, and occasionally had a colleague who died of coronavirus. 

So yes - coping with all that, while wearing a level of PPE that they weren’t used to, including masks for 12 hours at a time, when some people won’t even wear them in a shop, was demanding. Maybe you weren’t far off when you said ‘suffering.’ 

Well if you look at the thread title it poses the question "Anyone Not Suffering During This?" so that's why i used that word and used your post as an example of why i don't think people are suffering. 

Well first you say the majority of people working care home are not used to seeing death and then go on to say that they won't be on shift when it happens, so you are somehow suggesting that deaths due to Covid19 are more likely to happen when inexperienced people are on shift compared to other deaths which is absurd. 
Dealing with death is part of the job and all staff members should be trained up on this.

Looking at the figures it says that 26% of all deaths in England take place in care homes so that is 161,200 per year or 442 per day. Between the period 2 March to 12 June 2020 there were 66,112 deaths in care homes (including ones due to Covid19) so that is 648 deaths per day, which is a 47% increase and not a 500% increase as you have stated. 
So yes there was some increase but as this is part of the job anyway any decent care home and it's staff should have dealt with this without suffering. 

I'm not trying to belittle the work they do i'm just being realistic and it doesn't help anyone by exaggerating the facts saying the staff are suffering, struggling to cope and there is a 5 times increase in deaths in care home when that is a complete lie and just worries the families of the care home residents. 
I personally know people who work in decent care home and the way they have dealt with it all has been exceptional and they would not be happy with the way you are describing how they have been struggling to deal with it. 

Death figures in care homes sources: 
https://www.england.nhs.uk/london/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2020/03/SWL-care-home-data-pack-2019.pdf

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/deathsinvolvingcovid19inthecaresectorenglandandwales/deathsoccurringupto12june2020andregisteredupto20june2020provisional

No-one in care ever really becomes used to dealing with death. They know it’s part of the job, but every now and then one person gets through the shell and their death has more impact than people expect. 

People who are new may often not see death for quite a while after they start, and are usually introduced to it reasonably carefully. When I started nursing I had seen dead relatives, as I came from a community where it was traditional for family members to go and pay their last respects, but even then many people hadn’t. 30 years later very few young people have. Many of them haven’t even been to a funeral. During the worst of the pandemic that changed and people were thrown in at the deep end to see and deal with things that they wouldn’t normally see or be expected to deal with on their own, certainly not repeatedly. 

You’re dealing with generalities across the country. I’m talking specifics I know about where I have spoken to the people involved. It’s quite disgusting that you are accusing me of lying. You clearly have an agenda to belittle people’s experience, but I’m not sure what it is.

Figures for April from the BBC are here. 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52284281
In April there were  26,563 deaths in care homes, compared with an average of 8400. More than 3 times the usual deaths over the month. These weren’t evenly spread, with a lot of care homes having 5 times as many. That means care homes that were used to averaging 2 deaths a month having 10-12. A small number of homes had significantly more than 5 times the usual number. Equally some care homes had no excess deaths at all.  It’s not clear the reasons why some were worse affected than others, but size seems to be significant, with small homes coping better than large ones. 

At the time the concerns were almost all about hospitals being overwhelmed and the focus was off care homes altogether. They were simply abandoned to their own devices. Here’s an article detailing some of the issues. 
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31199-5/fulltext 

May continued to be bad, with a move North, but by then testing improved, PPE began to improve and there was a recognition of the impact. 

Takmon

Nebulous2 said:

Takmon said:

Nebulous2 said:

Takmon said:

Nebulous2 said:

I spend much of my time talking to people on the front-line however, who have been dealing with death and devastation for months. It has been a bit of a rollercoaster emotionally, with some dreadfully sad tales, but a lot of humanity in the midst of it. 

In the UK around 620,000 people die each year and Covid19 has been responsible for 41,586 deaths so that's only a 6.7% increase in deaths. I can't see how anyone who works in the NHS and care and are used to seeing people die would be effected much more than usual by a small increase. 

This is probably an unpopular opinion but i think saying people are "suffering" by working in these jobs is quite an exaggeration when this is the role the carry out normally anyway.  

Your post makes me realise why I don’t normally post about work in this forum, and how spectacularly lacking in compassion some people can be. You’ll note I didn’t use the word ‘suffering’ it’s you who added that in. 

Within a care home a majority of the staff will be young people, particularly women, who often have had no prior exposure to death. They are introduced to that and supported through it, carefully and slowly, at least in the good homes. They often won’t be on shift when it happens, they will be told about it, but won’t see it or have to deal with it, until they are ready. There may well be less than a death a month in people they know and have developed a relationship with. They come into care because they care, in the main, and losing people they have known, often for months, is difficult. 

During the worst period in care homes that shifted. At its peak 30% of staff were sick or isolating. The death rate was 5 times what it would normally be, for 2-3 months. The normal support mechanisms crashed and people with limited experience had to deal with things they wouldn’t normally see.  Seeing deaths that were not what they were used to, and were often particularly difficult wasn’t good. 

They also had to deal with distressed, frustrated and angry relatives. Ones whose family members were dying and they couldn’t see them, ones whose family member had died and they blamed the staff for killing them, ones whose family members were fine, but they didn’t believe that, because they couldn’t see them. 

All the time they were worried about catching it themselves, and occasionally had a colleague who died of coronavirus. 

So yes - coping with all that, while wearing a level of PPE that they weren’t used to, including masks for 12 hours at a time, when some people won’t even wear them in a shop, was demanding. Maybe you weren’t far off when you said ‘suffering.’ 

Well if you look at the thread title it poses the question "Anyone Not Suffering During This?" so that's why i used that word and used your post as an example of why i don't think people are suffering. 

Well first you say the majority of people working care home are not used to seeing death and then go on to say that they won't be on shift when it happens, so you are somehow suggesting that deaths due to Covid19 are more likely to happen when inexperienced people are on shift compared to other deaths which is absurd. 
Dealing with death is part of the job and all staff members should be trained up on this.

Looking at the figures it says that 26% of all deaths in England take place in care homes so that is 161,200 per year or 442 per day. Between the period 2 March to 12 June 2020 there were 66,112 deaths in care homes (including ones due to Covid19) so that is 648 deaths per day, which is a 47% increase and not a 500% increase as you have stated. 
So yes there was some increase but as this is part of the job anyway any decent care home and it's staff should have dealt with this without suffering. 

I'm not trying to belittle the work they do i'm just being realistic and it doesn't help anyone by exaggerating the facts saying the staff are suffering, struggling to cope and there is a 5 times increase in deaths in care home when that is a complete lie and just worries the families of the care home residents. 
I personally know people who work in decent care home and the way they have dealt with it all has been exceptional and they would not be happy with the way you are describing how they have been struggling to deal with it. 

Death figures in care homes sources: 
https://www.england.nhs.uk/london/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2020/03/SWL-care-home-data-pack-2019.pdf

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/deathsinvolvingcovid19inthecaresectorenglandandwales/deathsoccurringupto12june2020andregisteredupto20june2020provisional

No-one in care ever really becomes used to dealing with death. They know it’s part of the job, but every now and then one person gets through the shell and their death has more impact than people expect. 

People who are new may often not see death for quite a while after they start, and are usually introduced to it reasonably carefully. When I started nursing I had seen dead relatives, as I came from a community where it was traditional for family members to go and pay their last respects, but even then many people hadn’t. 30 years later very few young people have. Many of them haven’t even been to a funeral. During the worst of the pandemic that changed and people were thrown in at the deep end to see and deal with things that they wouldn’t normally see or be expected to deal with on their own, certainly not repeatedly. 

You’re dealing with generalities across the country. I’m talking specifics I know about where I have spoken to the people involved. It’s quite disgusting that you are accusing me of lying. You clearly have an agenda to belittle people’s experience, but I’m not sure what it is.

Figures for April from the BBC are here. 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52284281
In April there were  26,563 deaths in care homes, compared with an average of 8400. More than 3 times the usual deaths over the month. These weren’t evenly spread, with a lot of care homes having 5 times as many. That means care homes that were used to averaging 2 deaths a month having 10-12. A small number of homes had significantly more than 5 times the usual number. Equally some care homes had no excess deaths at all.  It’s not clear the reasons why some were worse affected than others, but size seems to be significant, with small homes coping better than large ones. 

At the time the concerns were almost all about hospitals being overwhelmed and the focus was off care homes altogether. They were simply abandoned to their own devices. Here’s an article detailing some of the issues. 
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31199-5/fulltext 

May continued to be bad, with a move North, but by then testing improved, PPE began to improve and there was a recognition of the impact. 

You made a blanket statement saying that "he death rate was 5 times what it would normally be, for 2-3 months" which sounded like you meant in every care on average when in reality the worst month was just over 3 times on average and like you said some care home were effected more than others. When you are talking about people dying i think it's really important to be accurate in what is being said and numbers certainly shouldn't be exaggerated to make it sound worse because that helps no one. 

I'm not trying to belittle people's experiences i'm just trying to not over exaggerate and state the staff are "suffering". Plus personally i think saying how the staff in care homes have had to work extra hard but have done their jobs exceptionally well in difficult circumstances is far better than your story of staff with little and inadequate training unable to cope with their jobs which is certainly not what i have heard.
So i'm not sure why your so determined to say they are unable to deal with something that is part of their job which some may find quite insulting.