Timing for distribution of "estate"

onwards&upwards

MoneySeeker1 said:

thepurplepixie said:

Well the OP will be disgusted but after carryings on this weekend I am thinking of cutting one of my children out and leaving their share to their children, I did intend leaving money to those particular GC due to circumstances but I think they will get the full whack now.  Unfair?  Well if you want to be treated fairly then acting fairly would be a good start.

I don't know what that "child" concerned has or hasn't done and whether it merits exclusion or no - but, in my book, they've not been excluded in the slightest. They are still getting the money - but it's just going "straight through them/past their nose" direct to their own children. So, in my book, that makes them still included just as much as they ever have been and still getting the same as any other children you have. In my book they are not a "person and their own children" - they are "one unit - counts as one person" and I don't see a parent and their own children as being "divisible - individual human beings" in this context. I see siblings as "units" - and that "unit" may be either "one childless person" or "one person with a child or children of their own" - but I still see them as "household units" so to say. For the purposes of a will - they simply aren't "individual people in their own right" in my opinion - they are "household units" and each "household unit" should be treated equally - whether that "household" has 0 children, 1 child, 2 children, lots of children.

That is a very strange book!  

Did you still consider yourself to be a unit with your own parents until their recent deaths?  

Am I still a unit with my parents even though I left home more than 15 years ago?  Because I have to say I do feel very much like a real person in my own right,  I definitely have my own mind, as do you!

What if you'd have 3 children and your brother one, and your parents had left each grandchild 25% each.  Would you have told your grandchildren that they had to a deed of variation so that your brother's one child got 50% and they shared the other 50% between them?

If I can gently suggest, I think it may be helpful for you to have a happier future if you can come to understand that actually you do not have 'the standard way of thinking'.  In fact there is no 'standard way of thinking' at all.  There are cultural norms, but they vary massively and people still have their own unique takes on them.  You, money seeker, actually have a very different way of thinking than the vast majority of other people.  This is not wrong, or something that you need to change, but if you could maybe talk to a doctor or a counsellor or get referred to somebody who might help you to understand this, then you might well have a happier life and be able to more at peace with the fact that other people often behave in ways and do things that you disapprove of or that you struggle to understand. 

thepurplepixie

MoneySeeker1 said:

thepurplepixie said:

Well the OP will be disgusted but after carryings on this weekend I am thinking of cutting one of my children out and leaving their share to their children, I did intend leaving money to those particular GC due to circumstances but I think they will get the full whack now.  Unfair?  Well if you want to be treated fairly then acting fairly would be a good start.

That's where this post is amongst those replies on this thread that are "a million miles" away from how things actually are.

I'm not in the slightest bit disgusted or even remotely disapproving of that.

I don't know what that "child" concerned has or hasn't done and whether it merits exclusion or no - but, in my book, they've not been excluded in the slightest. They are still getting the money - but it's just going "straight through them/past their nose" direct to their own children. So, in my book, that makes them still included just as much as they ever have been and still getting the same as any other children you have. In my book they are not a "person and their own children" - they are "one unit - counts as one person" and I don't see a parent and their own children as being "divisible - individual human beings" in this context. I see siblings as "units" - and that "unit" may be either "one childless person" or "one person with a child or children of their own" - but I still see them as "household units" so to say. For the purposes of a will - they simply aren't "individual people in their own right" in my opinion - they are "household units" and each "household unit" should be treated equally - whether that "household" has 0 children, 1 child, 2 children, lots of children.

A parent basically - as I see it - won't be concerned as to whether they get money personally directly themselves on the one hand OR it goes straight to their own children. Either way - their "household unit" has got the money and, so it's "come in their direction" whether they personally get it or whether their own children get it. I don't count parents and their children "separately" for inheritance purposes - whoever they are.

If I'd had two children to match my brothers two children and our parents had left the money straight past our noses to our children - I'd have still considered myself as "That was fair - I had half of it and he had half of it" and it simply wouldn't concern me that it had been my children, rather than me, that had got it. In my case - my children couldn't get it - because I don't have any. So my brother has been treated as "several household units" (though he is only one) and I've been treated as just one "household unit" (because I don't have children). That is where the problem lies - that our "household units" have been treated differently because of our different numbers of children we respectively have. 

I'm now "getting my affairs in order" personally and doing what I think is referred to as a "Swedish death cleanse" and, now that I've established that I will get that (unfairly low) share of our parents estate - then I'm not actually that concerned whether I personally get it or it gets "added to my own Estate". I've checked and found it will be added to my "own Estate" should I myself die - and can rest easy on that point at any rate that that (unfair) share is now mine - even if I'm not alive myself to actually physically get it and use it iyswim. It will come to my own "estate" and go where the rest of my "estate" goes (ie to a named charity in my own case) should anything happen to me - and you'd have to ask the Government just how much longer they plan on keeping us all in Lockdown to know whether I'll be living for the rest of my "expected lifespan" or they will be cutting it short for me by imposing this on us much longer.

I can assure my child and their partner won't consider it has gone to their household, it hasn't as they are estranged from the children from first marriage.  My other kids could object as well as I am considering these 2 GC as my own so my will is going to be split 5 ways, 3 of my 4 children, plus the 2 GC I am going to treat as my children. Now my other kids could object, they could object that their children are excluded but as much as I am disappointed in one I am proud of the other 3 who have encouraged me to follow through on my decision as they see everything being split equally between the 5 of them is a small step to righting wrongs with these GC.
You are coming across like a child, "It's not fair"  but tell me this, who ever told you life would be fair?  Do you think the children starving in the Yemen is fair?  Do you think the toddler with cancer is fair?  Do you think someone of your age who grew up with parents who physically and sexually abused them is fair?  You are an adult with an income you can live on, you own a house, you are inheriting something, you really need to be thankful.  I believe from other things you have said that your brother and his wife were more involved in supporting your parents, you are a long journey away from them so I imagine you saw them far less than your brother did.  Your brother's children might have given your parents much joy so why shouldn't they all be recognised for that, you weren't forgotten and unless they left you something that is clearly an insult, £5 for you and £500,000 for them, think of what your parents did for you and move on.

Savvy_Sue

onwards&upwards said:

That is a very strange book!  

Did you still consider yourself to be a unit with your own parents until their recent deaths?  

Am I still a unit with my parents even though I left home more than 15 years ago?  Because I have to say I do feel very much like a real person in my own right,  I definitely have my own mind, as do you!

What if you'd have 3 children and your brother one, and your parents had left each grandchild 25% each.  Would you have told your grandchildren that they had to a deed of variation so that your brother's one child got 50% and they shared the other 50% between them?

If I can gently suggest, I think it may be helpful for you to have a happier future if you can come to understand that actually you do not have 'the standard way of thinking'.  In fact there is no 'standard way of thinking' at all.  There are cultural norms, but they vary massively and people still have their own unique takes on them.  You, money seeker, actually have a very different way of thinking than the vast majority of other people.  This is not wrong, or something that you need to change, but if you could maybe talk to a doctor or a counsellor or get referred to somebody who might help you to understand this, then you might well have a happier life and be able to more at peace with the fact that other people often behave in ways and do things that you disapprove of or that you struggle to understand. 

If I could thank this post more than once, I would ... 

thepurplepixie

I felt the same as Savvy_Sue.

pip895

I think my parents picked the gold standard for fair distribution by dividing their estate 50:50 between Children and Grandkids and then treating all within those categories evenly.😊  [for info I have one child and my sister three]

They could have gone for option 2 splitting the estate evenly between their children, or option 3 evenly between all their descendants.  If their children were well catered for already, then option 4 would also be fair - to split their estate between just the grandkids.  All these options have their advocates on this forum and can be fair. 

The key is communication - perhaps if the op. had learnt of the proposed distribution directly from her parent/parents she might have accepted it better, although I suspect there might have been a row at the time, her relationship with her brother and his children could have mended in time.  As it is she is potentially loosing far more than the cash she thinks she is missing out on - it is really a very sad state of affairs.

MoneySeeker1

"Communication" (or lack of) is indeed part of this problem.

The communication had always been - that both brother and I had always been told it would be split 50/50 between us and I can't speak for him - but I accepted that as fair. We were both told that pretty often in fact.

Then I found out my brother had gone behind my back to my mother (behind my fathers back) and asked if he could have more than me (ie "some for his children"). He is an "asker" and my mothers favourite child and always has been. I would never "ask" for anything - soon got told off if I tried it by my mother from quite a young age. But he didn't seem to get told off in the same way and kept "asking". Hence not surprised he "asked" for this as well and didn't consider the effect on me at all. It would have been honourable for him to not even think of "asking" for extra or, at the very least, asking me if I would be in agreement with him "asking" for more. I wouldn't have dreamt of "asking" behind his back to his disadvantage.

So - I've had five shocks in quick succession - Lockdown being imposed, then fathers death, then mothers death, then finding it's an unfair Will (and totally different to what I'd always been told), then finding brother/his wife are refusing to do a "deed of variation" to put it back to normal. Quite a succession of blows.

So - I'm doing/have done what I can and will have minimal dealings with brother/sister-in-law until it's all been finalised (including being very sure I see the copy of accounts I'm entitled to see). Then relations between us will be completely over - already on the "to do" list of draft final letter to them and "delete all emails between us from my computer" on list of tasks. My brother has already let that cat out of the bag about visibly hoping to have his children get my house too at some point - by asking me how long I think I'm likely to live!!!!!!! (ie "When can my children get your own house?"). Cue for my own will now being absolutely firmed up/set in stone now and massive opposition arranged to click into any attempt by my brothers wife to get anything I own at any point by default (which she would - and not even consider what might matter to me about what happens to my own property).

So, some point next year I guess it will be - it will be "All Over"/done & dusted and I'll just leave karma to deal with it and get on with my life (all being well).

It's clear that those who  have or want children will probably continue to refuse to see how my own life choices have been deemed less valid than my brothers life choices - and that is a hurtful thing to have one's parents do. Could have been worse - instead of being a perfectly conventional CIS woman (ie heterosexual etc etc) I could have made other life choices (that I personally am not interested in) and been "chucked overboard" as having "unacceptable life choices" for those as well. At least I've only been penalised for one life choice (not to have children) and it could have been a whole list of "disapproved of life choices" I was being whacked for. Could have been worse/could have been a lot worse....and some people do get thrown overboard completely for their own perfectly valid life choices. Those who've made the choice to have children are catered for by a current majority (and very vocal!) view that they come first and it will be a while/who knows when before they realise "every life choice comes equal- unless it's something unacceptable like being a criminal or something".

onwards&upwards

I've never wanted my own children either, moneyseeker.  I don't see the fact that my parents care about their grandchildren as 'penalising' me, I care about those children too.  I love them very much. 

There is a lot of prejudice and poor attitudes out there towards women who choose not to have children, but grandparents leaving their grandchildren something in their will is not part of that, especially as it seems they have left their two children equal amounts. 

I am very sorry that your parents have made you feel that they saw you as less important to them than your brother though.  That is undeniably tough to come to terms with. 

thepurplepixie

You are obviously hurt as I assume you feel the unequal split confirms your feelings that he was the favourite (for what it's worth my 4 would all identify a different sibling as the favourite which is quite wrong and I think that they would all say a different sibling probably indicates I am fair) 
I wonder if your parents knew you planned to leave your money/house/whatever to charities and they just didn't want that when their grandchildren could have a start in life?  So it might not indicate how they feel about you and your brother but just them wanting some control of where their money would go in the future.  Perhaps looking at it like that might make it feel less hurtful.  I'm assuming what they have left you will be useful for you so perhaps just try to enjoy it.
I think it would have helped if they had talked to you about it but it is too late to worry about that now.  As you know one of my children is being cut out of my will, not because I don't love them and I do lots for them but because for various reasons their children have had a very difficult start in life and due to issues with their parents I can't trust that what I would leave would trickle down to the children, they would be in a very different position to their cousins and I want to try to balance it a bit.  I will ensure my children all know why I have taken the decisions I have but I know it will hurt and I find that very difficult.
Your brother might not have been thinking about an inheritance for his children, maybe he was reflecting on life and death due to your parents both dying in a fairly short period and asked a strange question.  I'm not sure why you assume he meant that his children would get your house, it isn't as if you seem close to any of them.
Maybe giving people the benefit of the doubt would be positive for you?

tooldle

I was executor of my Dad's will. As it happens i am also LPA for my mum and hence privy to the contents of her will. As others have said, both tasks require a considerable amount of work. My Dad's estate was very simple in that everything passed to my mum. However it took 13 months to finalise as there were financial institutions to deal with as well as pension providers. It takes time and you need to be aware that businesses can take a considerable amount of time to provide a settlement figure on outstanding accounts. With property again, it takes time. Clearing the contents of a house is not a minor task, and when living at some distance can become extremely time consuming. 
Rather than expressing your 'disapproval' of your sibling. Take a step back and consider the mammoth task that he has taken on. If he hadn't agreed to be an executor, you could find yourself stuck with doing all the work and dealing with the communications and unpleasantness of scorned siblings. Think yourself lucky that you are free to crack on with your day to day life without this burden. 

Malthusian

The communication had always been - that both brother and I had always been told it would be split 50/50 between us and I can't speak for him - but I accepted that as fair. We were both told that pretty often in fact.

That in itself is already weird. Most families are doing well if they have even one conversation about inheritance with their children in their lifetime. Telling them "pretty often" that they're going to inherit 50/50 is unusual and not very healthy (especially as that is the default position).

Just emphasising onwards&upwards' comment that "this is a very strange book". 

When you say "brother and I had always been told" do you mean "I asked them pretty often and they always said"?

If the grandchildren have received specific bequests and the residuary estate goes to you and your brother 50/50 then they've been as good as their word. You just misinterpreted them on what they meant by "it".

It's clear that those who  have or want children will probably continue to refuse to see how my own life choices have been deemed less valid than my brothers life choices - and that is a hurtful thing to have one's parents do.

No they haven't. Your parents decided to leave their grandchildren some money and treated them as living entities in their own right rather than offshoots of their sire. That is it. All the implications you draw from that fact exist only in your own head, not theirs.