Traffic lights and box junctions

Supersonos

DoaM said:

For that particular junction I would interpret the box itself as a secondary stop line, the clue being that there is a traffic light next to it. So if that light is on red you do not proceed.

And as above - if you can't see that light then perhaps an eye test is in order. If you're moving then you should be able to see it on approach to the box - if you're stopped then you should still be able to see it, even if you have to crouch down to be able to see it from the driver's seat.

Should road signage/markings remove any interpretation? Otherwise people start assuming things and accidents happen.

There is no stop line at the box junction so I see no reason why I wouldn't proceed if it's clear.  

AdrianC

I presume that "if it's clear" is taking account of traffic coming along the other road of the junction, who have priority over you?

Supersonos

https://www.instantstreetview.com/@51.493018,-0.222766,135.82h,-11.82p,1z

Another example, just the other side of the broadway.  Plenty of space for a couple of cars after the stop line/pedestrian crossing, but no view of any traffic lights and no give way sign.

Mercdriver

If you proceed with caution when safe you aren't breaking any law, since the offence is crossing the stop line on amber or red (though of course there is a statutory defence on amber if not safe to stop).  If you are being observant then there is no reason not to proceed, if it is safe to do so.

Car_54

Supersonos said:

AdrianC said:

Simples. Don't cross the line until your exit is clear.

So why doesn't the yellow box start immediately after the stop line?  Why have a couple of car lengths?

Because the purpose of the box is to keep the junction clear, and stopping between the line and the box doesn't obstruct anyone.

AdrianC

Supersonos said:

https://www.instantstreetview.com/@51.493018,-0.222766,135.82h,-11.82p,1z

Another example, just the other side of the broadway.  Plenty of space for a couple of cars after the stop line/pedestrian crossing, but no view of any traffic lights and no give way sign.

One single car-length...
https://www.instantstreetview.com/vimg/1bcf696b79.jpg

Zooming in on Google Maps, and measuring the distance from the light at the end of the pedestrian crossing to the box shows it to be about 5m.
https://goo.gl/maps/p1WrofFQkBjibrBJ7

facade

Having seen the junction, I'm with Mercdriver. 

If it is safe to proceed, you can, but I can't imagine a situation where you would need to, usually those type of junctions are arranged so the main road is gridlocked by people turning left from the sideroad into the gap created by people turning left off the main road at the next set of lights along, so you can sit at the edge of the box forever as the exit never clears for you. (Then people give up and out of frustration stop in the box and kerching!  another fine is generated)

treeroy

Supersonos said:

These replies still aren't really answering the question.

Stop line - do not cross on red.
Box junction - do not enter if exit is not clear.

But there have been occasions that I've crossed the line and can no longer even see the lights, and then later the exit to the box clears.  By the rules of the road, I can then enter the box (if it's safe to do so).

Why doesn't the box start immediately after the line?

There's a junction in Hammersmith where there is room for about three cars after the lights, then a box junction.  Who gives way to who?

https://www.instantstreetview.com/@51.491337,-0.223242,287.75h,-12.19p,1z

How can you not see whether there's cars coming if you are at that box junction?? Non functioning eyes?

sweetsand

Dear OP
Some will never understand as possilby they don't drive or live in a quiet part of the UK
You made a very vlaid point one that coucils make money from in many cases.
No matter what some have said, it is easier said than doen especially in high density traffic areasa. important to note that some box junctions are poorly laid out and there to make money for the coucil or whoever the fines go to by training their cctv on the box junction. We dread those junctions, are advance drivers but people will push in on amber and on red at times elaving you stuck in the middle. Thanfully it's only happened once and no cctv but we avoid one on our way to family's home.

onlyfoolsandparking

sweetsand said:

Dear OP
Some will never understand as possilby they don't drive or live in a quiet part of the UK
You made a very vlaid point one that coucils make money from in many cases.
No matter what some have said, it is easier said than doen especially in high density traffic areasa. important to note that some box junctions are poorly laid out and there to make money for the coucil or whoever the fines go to by training their cctv on the box junction. We dread those junctions, are advance drivers but people will push in on amber and on red at times elaving you stuck in the middle. Thanfully it's only happened once and no cctv but we avoid one on our way to family's home.

Another excellent post, thank you for that. I know a couple of advanced drivers and they too avoid box junctions, one told me 'just not worth it' getting stuck in the middle by someone pushing in, how awful! you were very very lucky that it only happened once. ATB