Denplan doing OK

silvercar

In general a dentist doing majority private work will earn around 5% more than one doing majority nhs . 

If this is true, I’m surprised so many bother, the extra cash outlay and training required to recoup just 5% more in salary is hardly the worth the effort. I’m surprised their accountants are saying that the extra turnover isn’t worth the investment.

silvercar

onwards&upwards said:

Do you think its right that money buys access to good dental care and better oral health in this country?

Do you think its acceptable that dental care has essentially stopped for NHS patients (and for lots of private patients too) with massive variations in when people will be able to access care again?

That happens in loads of specialties not just dental care. Even cancer care where diagnosis is quicker and treatment options more varied privately.
given that the NHS is not a bottomless pit, those that choose to pay or insure are going to have better access to healthcare full stop.

hb2

According to the dentists I spoke to at the time*, the final straw for many of them was increased micro-management by the PCTs (as were) when new NHS contracts were introduced. GPs had been working under those constraints for a long time but it was new for dentists and they simply didn't feel that the rewards were worth the effort.

*This is probably several decades ago now as it is 10 years since I was forced to retire from nursing.

Dr_Crypto

A lot of healthcare professionals (including myself) do private work not because it’s fabulously lucrative but because it isn’t the NHS and you get a bit more freedom and less administrative crap. 

dcweather

MalMonroe said:

dcweather said:

I have some sympathy with Dentists having read this, but you can't really expect the public to subsidise part of their service when they are not able to receive the treatment they have effectively pre-paid. I've yet to see a dentist living in small terraced house on a housing estate! 

Yeh, dentists have to study for at least seven years before they can start working and earning a decent salary. During this pandemic they have had to abide by government directives so through no fault of their own, unfortunately, they're unable to get stuck into work. 

Most dentists have worked very hard to achieve their qualifications, and some of them actually DO live in terraced houses. Maybe not small ones but my dentist lives in a terraced house. They're not all as wealthy as you may think. But even if they are, so what? They deserve it.

Would YOU like to stick your fingers in people's mouths for a living? I know I wouldn't, especially not now when we know that the virus is spread by saliva.

Dentistry has come a long way in the last twenty years, and dentists do a job I'd hate to do. Cut them some slack. 

I don't disagree with most of what you are saying. Yes, dentistry has absolutely improved in the last 50 years as understanding has increased. And I do believe they work hard and deserve a decent salary. But this thread isn't about the problems of Dentists it's about compensation for paying for services that can't be delivered. So your heart is ruling your head. Everybody has had to make some sort of sacrifices during the pandemic Dentists are no exception. But I don't see why an insurance Company like Denplan should be allowed to take full premiums on behalf of Dentists who are unable to provide the cover we are paying for even if it is not their fault. For example there would have been a cost attached to providing my two free hygiene appointments. That is now unadulterated additional profit to somebody. We are affected financially and should be compensated. Who do you think is suffering most here? Denplan executives or a low income worker who is unable to get some aspects of his dental care but is still paying for it. It is an issue for the Government who are able to print money like no tomorrow to help out businesses and furlough a lot of City workers who have been spending it on endless rounds of golf yet ordinary everyday issues for ordinary people are overlooked.

Beeboo23

onwards&upwards said:

My dentist hasn't reopened yet, not even for essential treatments to save teeth or checkups to potentially spot problems including oral cancers, and has no plans to until at least next month. 

I am distinctly unimpressed with how the dental profession as a whole has responded to this pandemic, and I think a lot of them need a reminder of what the phrases 'duty of care' and 'professional ethics' mean.  

Excuse me but some dentists have been working extremely hard during this and are working even harder being bogged down by horrible restrictive masks, gowns and additional PPE in 30 degree plus heat. You can say you’re unimpressed with your dentist but I am very impressed with how they profession as a whole has managed this and most dentists I know are working harder than ever.  I’ve managed to get an appointment with my dentist. It may come as a shock to you but most dental conditions are preventable. You too need to take responsibility for your own health care. Try brushing your teeth and eating least sweets!

Beeboo23

onwards&upwards said:

Dr_Crypto said:

onwards&upwards said:

Dr_Crypto said:

onwards&

The terror of AGPs is ridiculous, what do you think the other health professions have been doing all this time?  They can’t run away from them and lots of them are in far riskier positions than a dental surgery! 

The fear of AGPs is well founded and all healthcare providers have been taking care with them. Elective activity in the NHS everywhere was all but stopped until late June and we all have a huge backlog.
Dentistry involves very high risk AGPs unlike most medicine which isn’t AGP. In hospitals we were told not to even look inside mouths as it is was so risky (the virus is thought to live in the throat). 

Pretty sure the staff on the respiratory wards, the critical care areas, the emergency departments and the end of life care settings didn’t refuse to do AGPs or go near throats.  How on earth do you think staff even managed to do swab tests without looking in throats!! 

They wear PPE. 

Is there some reason why dentists can't wear PPE?  They wear some anyway, they should be familiar with the concept...

Dentists are wearing PPE. They’re wearing P3 masks, scrub caps, washable fluid repellent gowns, plastic aprons and visors for an AGP. Maybe they’re prioritising patients that don’t hold them in so much contempt. In case you haven’t noticed there’s still a pandemic going on so they’re right to be reducing numbers in line with social distancing and prioritising people with pain/trauma/infections and existing on going treatment. 

Beeboo23

epm-84 said:

brook2jack2 said:

Dental practices wouldn't need anything like the huge numbers of masks that hospitals need. 

Care homes, hospices and small private providers have managed to source PPE.  

Oral health is health, it matters. 

Our practice put in orders for our usual PPE in February and those orders have still not been fulfilled. Most PPE was ring fenced for nhs use and dentists, as independent contractors , were not in that supply chain. 

Most dentists decided in the last 20 years that they could provide a better service by becoming private instead of remaining NHS. The government has a duty to ensure those offering NHS services can provide NHS services, if the dentists don't want to offer NHS services then it's their own problem how to resolve issues with the supply chain and if they can't then they aren't providing the level of service their patients expect.  If any dentist thought by becoming private they could earn more money and offer a better service then they might be thinking again now.

Lots of private dentists have been bidding for NHS contracts year on year but guess what... They can’t  get them because the government limits how much NHS treatment is allowed to be provided each year. Nothing to do with dentists, everything to do with government funding.  If you want better access to NHS dentistry write to your MP, lobby the government, focus on the people creating the problems, not the ones doing their best to work with them. 

Beeboo23

onwards&upwards said:

MalMonroe said:

I really can't believe some of the stupidity on here. To my mind, given that it's a known fact that coronavirus is spread by droplets coming from the mouth, dentistry is a really dangerous job right now. Most dentists are doing their best. 

Nursing is a dangerous job right now, medicine is a dangerous job right now, respiratory physiotherapy is a dangerous job right now, ODP is a dangerous job right now.  HCA or carer is a dangerous job right now. 

The difference is, those professions haven't stopped looking after the people they have a duty of care for.  Why have dentists?  Why do other health professions accept that the risk of exposure to an infectious disease is part of the job but that their responsibility to their patients is more important, while the dental profession seems to believe the opposite? 

I don't accept any argument that dental care is somehow less important.  Its absolutely vital to good health and poor oral health can kill. 

Dentists haven’t stopped looking after people. Perhaps yours is just ignoring you. 

Beeboo23

silvercar said:

In general a dentist doing majority private work will earn around 5% more than one doing majority nhs . 

If this is true, I’m surprised so many bother, the extra cash outlay and training required to recoup just 5% more in salary is hardly the worth the effort. I’m surprised their accountants are saying that the extra turnover isn’t worth the investment.

It’s not about the money though is it. It’s about having more time and less pressure to meet targets and less restrictions on the treatments they can offer. Not everything is about money and professionals don’t take clinical advice from their accountants. A lot of dentists and other health care professionals invest in education after graduation not because of money but because they enjoy learning and want to better themselves and their patients.