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onwards&upwards

brook2jack do you agree that dentistry and oral health should have just been given up on though?  I understand that it was hard for individual dentists (my own has expressed their frustration, a small NHS practice) but why were the professional organisations and those at the top not campaigning to be able to help their patients?   Why are they still not? 

Do you think its ok that dentistry is still not happening in this country?  That people are losing teeth they didn't need to lose or being left in pain?  That this is hitting the most disadvantaged in the country hardest as poor oral health is strongly linked to poverty?  That oral cancers and other complications of poor dental health will definitely have been missed?  

I can't work out if you are trying to say that its ok that an absolutely vital element of health care has just stopped happening since March, or if you're defending individual dentists who wanted to continue to provide care but couldn't. 

brook2jack2

Those at the top of dentistry and all through the layers of dentistry are campaigning, have been since the start of the corona virus. Google and you will find thousands of newspaper articles. Locally to us there have been dozens of meetings , none of which have achieved anything because dentistry and oral health does not politically appear on the map. 

When problems occur it is easy for everyone to blame "greedy dentists" and the real problems of decades of chronic underfunding and ignoring oral health go untackled yet again.

The U.K. is by far the most heavily regulated dental profession, they are by far , internationally the most likely to be sued. The U.K. corona restrictions imposed by government on dentistry  are by a long chalk the most onerous with the exception, possibly, of Canada . All of this has been protested by U.K. dentists and dental organisations but like with the allocation of PPE dentistry does not appear on the political radar .

However the story of dentistry in this country is it has never really been part of the health service financially , organisationally or politically , it is very small fish and so long as the public continues to vent their anger on individual practices and practitioners ,who have no control or choice over what they do , rather than on local health authorities and government who have the power and finances, nothing will change except more and more practices will close and dentistry will be even harder to access. 

The people who can change things are the public who need to recognise that they need to complain, write letters etc but directed at those who hold the purse strings and power not those who cannot change things and only work in the system.

ripplyuk

brook2jack2 said:

onwards&upwards said:

ripplyuk said:

 By law the staff have to have the fp3 masks off at least every hour as oxygen levels drop and people overheat in the PPE . 

@brook2jack I thought that was a myth! I was wearing an FFP3 mask for 6 hours on Friday, without a break. Was that dangerous? I didn’t notice any ill effects but I don’t want to be depriving myself of oxygen. 

It is a myth, either that or dentists physiology is different from that of doctors, nurses, physios and ODPs!

Actually it is in HSE regulations https://marketcross.org/Downloads/hsg53.pdf
also as dentists have to wear a surgical mask over valved FFP3 Masks hence negating the ease of breathing out oxygen sats drop pretty quickly . 

I can’t find anything about lack of oxygen but it does say ‘less than 1 hour’ so I assume they mean it’s unsafe to wear for longer. That’s worrying as I was wearing exactly that setup (a surgical mask over the valved FFP3). I hope I haven’t done any damage to myself. This is the first time I’ve heard it was dangerous. All the info I’ve found so far was about how it’s a myth that masks reduce oxygen. Even layered masks. 

silvercar

ripplyuk said:

brook2jack2 said:

onwards&upwards said:

ripplyuk said:

 By law the staff have to have the fp3 masks off at least every hour as oxygen levels drop and people overheat in the PPE . 

@brook2jack I thought that was a myth! I was wearing an FFP3 mask for 6 hours on Friday, without a break. Was that dangerous? I didn’t notice any ill effects but I don’t want to be depriving myself of oxygen. 

It is a myth, either that or dentists physiology is different from that of doctors, nurses, physios and ODPs!

Actually it is in HSE regulations https://marketcross.org/Downloads/hsg53.pdf
also as dentists have to wear a surgical mask over valved FFP3 Masks hence negating the ease of breathing out oxygen sats drop pretty quickly . 

I can’t find anything about lack of oxygen but it does say ‘less than 1 hour’ so I assume they mean it’s unsafe to wear for longer. That’s worrying as I was wearing exactly that setup (a surgical mask over the valved FFP3). I hope I haven’t done any damage to myself. This is the first time I’ve heard it was dangerous. All the info I’ve found so far was about how it’s a myth that masks reduce oxygen. Even layered masks. 

Couldn't you periodically check your levels with an oximeter?

anotherbob

brook2jack2 said:

dcweather said:

Can this be got back on topic! The OP, like me, wants to know what their rights are in terms of a rebate for paid for dental plans that were not and could not have been carried out due to being closed or restricted. In my case this would have been two free hygiene visits and an inspection. I have now paid almost 6 months of premiums for services and benefits which could not be met. Presumably the staff were furloughed and the practice got some compensation so where is mine?

As said earlier in the thread dentists and hygienists are self employed so couldn't go on furlough , if their earnings were above £50,000 they could not get a self employment grant. 

If a practice had nhs commitment it could not furlough staff.
Dental  surgeries got less Financial help than betting shops as they could not claim many of the grants such as rate rebates . 

Subscriptions is all that has kept many practices from going under and they will be working extra hours and days to clear the backlog of treatment. 

I hadn't been aware that Dentists' practices were so close to the breadline....

I'm struggling to think of another example where a service could be withdrawn while payment was still being taken.

silvercar

As said earlier in the thread dentists and hygienists are self employed so couldn't go on furlough , if their earnings were above £50,000 they could not get a self employment grant. 

I'm surprised most hygienists earn over £50k. In my experience a lot work part-time, even on full time earnings I am surprised that they generally earn that well.

Given that dentists have the running costs of a practice, hygienists earning over £50k must often have more take home pay than the dentists that contract them. 

 

epm-84

brook2jack2 said:

Dental practices wouldn't need anything like the huge numbers of masks that hospitals need. 

Care homes, hospices and small private providers have managed to source PPE.  

Oral health is health, it matters. 

Our practice put in orders for our usual PPE in February and those orders have still not been fulfilled. Most PPE was ring fenced for nhs use and dentists, as independent contractors , were not in that supply chain. 

Most dentists decided in the last 20 years that they could provide a better service by becoming private instead of remaining NHS. The government has a duty to ensure those offering NHS services can provide NHS services, if the dentists don't want to offer NHS services then it's their own problem how to resolve issues with the supply chain and if they can't then they aren't providing the level of service their patients expect.  If any dentist thought by becoming private they could earn more money and offer a better service then they might be thinking again now.

epm-84

anotherbob said:

brook2jack2 said:

dcweather said:

Can this be got back on topic! The OP, like me, wants to know what their rights are in terms of a rebate for paid for dental plans that were not and could not have been carried out due to being closed or restricted. In my case this would have been two free hygiene visits and an inspection. I have now paid almost 6 months of premiums for services and benefits which could not be met. Presumably the staff were furloughed and the practice got some compensation so where is mine?

As said earlier in the thread dentists and hygienists are self employed so couldn't go on furlough , if their earnings were above £50,000 they could not get a self employment grant. 

If a practice had nhs commitment it could not furlough staff.
Dental  surgeries got less Financial help than betting shops as they could not claim many of the grants such as rate rebates . 

Subscriptions is all that has kept many practices from going under and they will be working extra hours and days to clear the backlog of treatment. 

I'm struggling to think of another example where a service could be withdrawn while payment was still being taken.

Agreed. Even some insurers who had sold annual travel insurance offered rebates/policy extensions to those who purchased them pre-COVID-19 to allow for the period that the policy couldn't be used.

How do you actually pay Denplan?  If you paid for service using Visa or Mastercard and it wasn't delivered then you may be able to make a chargeback if Denplan don't compensate you.

epm-84

brook2jack2 said:

dcweather said:

Can this be got back on topic! The OP, like me, wants to know what their rights are in terms of a rebate for paid for dental plans that were not and could not have been carried out due to being closed or restricted. In my case this would have been two free hygiene visits and an inspection. I have now paid almost 6 months of premiums for services and benefits which could not be met. Presumably the staff were furloughed and the practice got some compensation so where is mine?

If a practice had nhs commitment it could not furlough staff.

Martin confirmed with HMRC that dental nurses who did both private and NHS work could get something from the furlough scheme. He explained it in detail on one of this programmes - I can't remember exactly how it worked now. Although, if both the practice and the nurses weren't keep an eye on developments then they've missed out now given it's too late to furlough people for the first time now.

anotherbob

epm-84 said:

anotherbob said:

brook2jack2 said:

dcweather said:

Can this be got back on topic! The OP, like me, wants to know what their rights are in terms of a rebate for paid for dental plans that were not and could not have been carried out due to being closed or restricted. In my case this would have been two free hygiene visits and an inspection. I have now paid almost 6 months of premiums for services and benefits which could not be met. Presumably the staff were furloughed and the practice got some compensation so where is mine?

As said earlier in the thread dentists and hygienists are self employed so couldn't go on furlough , if their earnings were above £50,000 they could not get a self employment grant. 

If a practice had nhs commitment it could not furlough staff.
Dental  surgeries got less Financial help than betting shops as they could not claim many of the grants such as rate rebates . 

Subscriptions is all that has kept many practices from going under and they will be working extra hours and days to clear the backlog of treatment. 

I'm struggling to think of another example where a service could be withdrawn while payment was still being taken.

Agreed. Even some insurers who had sold annual travel insurance offered rebates/policy extensions to those who purchased them pre-COVID-19 to allow for the period that the policy couldn't be used.

How do you actually pay Denplan?  If you paid for service using Visa or Mastercard and it wasn't delivered then you may be able to make a chargeback if Denplan don't compensate you.

I pay by DD. 
This is what Denplan's website says... 
https://www.denplan.co.uk/coronavirus/faqs