PCN Issued but Reg No Was Entered in Machine In Store - Newhall Walk Car Park, Sutton Coldfield

ianp_1977

Coupon-mad said:

You need to complain to the RETAIL PARK MANAGING AGENTS, not just the stores. 
Google the place.  It is the managing agents who contracted with Excel.

 she said that after entering her number it went straight to the confirmation screen which said fee due: £0.00 thank you for parking at Newhall Walk Car Park.  As mentioned, these are just touch screen devices which don't print receipts so she has nothing to prove this other than my niece confirming it.

That is also illegal, under these Regs - VRM machines MUST produce a receipt (or email receipt) but they don't, and IMHO this breaks the law because the 'contract' has £100 charge riding on it:

Confirmation of distance contracts

16.—(1) In the case of a distance contract the trader must give the consumer confirmation of the contract on a durable medium.

(2) The confirmation must include all the information referred to in Schedule 2 unless the trader has already provided that information to the consumer on a durable medium prior to the conclusion of the distance contract.

(3) If the contract is for the supply of digital content not on a tangible medium and the consumer has given the consent and acknowledgment referred to in regulation 37(1)(a) and (b), the confirmation must include confirmation of the consent and acknowledgement.

(4) The confirmation must be provided within a reasonable time after the conclusion of the contract, but in any event—

(a) not later than the time of delivery of any goods supplied under the contract, and

(b) before performance begins of any service supplied under the contract.

(5) For the purposes of paragraph (4), the confirmation is treated as provided as soon as the trader has sent it or done what is necessary to make it available to the consumer.

“durable medium” means paper or email, or any other medium that—

(a) allows information to be addressed personally to the recipient,

(b) enables the recipient to store the information in a way accessible for future reference for a period that is long enough for the purposes of the information, and

(c) allows the unchanged reproduction of the information stored;

Thank you so much for this - I was convinced that there must be something that says they have to provide a receipt but couldn't find anything that indicated this anywhere.  That is really useful and I will include this in the letters to the store, MA and Land Owner.

I always used to be worried when using those shops that I didn't have proof that I'd validated the parking in store (and my paranoia seems to have been justified seeing what has happened with my mother).

Thanks again Coupon-mad - much appreciated!

Coupon-mad

I advise people to take a photo on their phone of the screen, every time, or record themselves inputting the VRM, because this is such a common scam.

ianp_1977

Redx said:

a CEO manages a company , not usually a shop (unless there is only one shop)

so in this case the CEO of b and m , who wont be in that shop but head office somewhere

but its the MA that is more important, as coupon mad says above, they are the go between and liaise between shops and the landowner, Savills do a lot of this MA work but that link mentions a different company, maybe its still them who are the MA ? I dont know, its your job to find out

yes, do that , start with the shop again, find out why no paper receipt is issued (I have been in several pubs and restaurants where no receipt is issued either, no harm in asking though) , then go to the MA and the landowner themselves (even if its the CEO of AVIVA for example)

recently we had one on here where it was AVIVA or some insurance company that owned it , they cancelled, we have been advising people to do this for years and during this lockdown many have succeeded , there were 2 this week on an EPS car park , same issues , same landowner for both, now that landowner and MA are aware of the actions of their sc@mming PPC known as EPS

Trafford Centre is INTU, they are now in receivership , so any parking charge there you would complain to the MA and also to INTU as well (under normal circumstances of course)

No problem, I'll update this thread when I have responses from the store head office/ MA/Landowner.  Thanks again!

Redx

same here when I have been in pubs and restaurants with IPAD validations, either in my vehicle or my sons vehicle, its always a worry, so we make sure its all double and triple checked, never had a problem yet, but never say never , especially with technology (which is why this covid app will fail whichever way they go)

people rely on apps too much , they dont put the nozzle from the petrol pump in my vehicle, they dont hang the washing out , they dont replace a dropping tap washer and they dont fill the dishwasher either

when they fail in a doctors surgery or hospital, they go back to a whiteboard or paper, and marker pens , charts and postits , word of mouth , smoke signals and semaphore

ianp_1977

Hi all,

Just a quick update, I have managed to find out the details of the LO and the MA and have written to them accordingly.  I have also replied to Excel Parking, quoting the Equality Act 2010 and also the The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

Following the advice of @Redx and @Coupon-mad, I sent this email to Excel on 01 July:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I write with reference to your recent correspondence regarding the parking charge issued to my mother.
We have sought legal advice in relation to this matter and have been advised that we should not pay this charge for the following reasons:

1. my mother is disabled, in receipt of the higher rate mobility element of DLA and is a Blue Badge holder, and is therefore covered by “The Disability Equality Act 2010” which must provide additional concessions for disabled visitors
2. On the date in question, my mother did everything that was required of her, so it is not her fault if there seems to have been an issue with the technology as she complied with all instructions
3. There is a legal requirement for the machines that validate the parking to provide receipts under “The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013”, which the machines in this store do not provide as they do not provide either a digital or physical confirmation that can be kept for future reference.  Under Section 16. (1) In the case of a distance contract the trader must give the consumer confirmation of the contract on a durable medium.  “Durable medium” means paper or email, or any other medium that allows information to be addressed personally to the recipient, enables the recipient to store the information in a way accessible for future reference for a period that is long enough for the purposes of the information, and allows the unchanged reproduction of the information stored;
4. my mother has a witness who can verify that they saw her enter the code into the machine and that it was validated successfully

In light of the above, we intend to draw the attention of the land owners and managing agents to the machines not providing receipts within the stores (in breach of The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013) and the fact that my mother is becoming very distressed due to being harassed for payment even though she complied with the requirements to park on site and that this is in contravention of the Disability Discrimination Act 2010.  I would therefore be grateful if you could confirm the following:
1.       the name and contact details of the Managing Agents for the retail park
2.       the name and contact details of the Managing Agents for the car park
3.       the name and contact details of the land owners of the retail park
4.       the name and contact details of the land owners of the car park
In addition to the above, please can you also provide us with the following information, which was requested in our previous letter which was sent by post, to which we did not receive a response):
5.       Confirmation of all registration numbers validated on the main car park paystations in the hour prior to my mother leaving the car park
6.       Confirmation of all registration numbers validated on the touchscreens in B&M (including which of the screens in the store each registration number was entered on)
7.       Confirmation of all registration numbers that were entered that were unmatched from the touchscreens inside B&M (although we know that if the number is entered incorrectly that it asks you to enter the time you arrived so the fact it validated her registration number immediately seems to indicate that the registration number was entered correctly)
As our previous letter was ignored, please confirm receipt of this email as soon as possible so that we know that it has been read.
Yours sincerely,

I had one reply saying that they needed permission to speak to me.  I therefore got my mother to give authorisation which was emailed to them on 08 July.  They then ignored my original email and sent out a further threatening letter to my mother dated 10th July, demanding £160.  I have written back to them asking for a response to my email and have now received 2 replies, one from their "litigation" department and one from their Debt Recovery Department, which are attached below.

The reply from the Debt Recovery Dept. was as follows:

Good afternoon
We will not be providing the requested information as it is either commercially sensitive or would be a breach of data protection. We would also adivse that as per our response to the appeal made on this case, we would not accept further disputes.
Regards
Debt Recovery Department

The response from the Litigation Department was as follows:

Good Morning,
There are bays reserved for blue badge holders at the car park, but motorists with a blue badge are not exempt from the charges. The signs instruct motorists to enter full and correct VRM and this was not done on this occasion.As part of this process,a receipt can be printed. 

Any further information will be provided if it is needed for Court

Regards

Darren

Litigation Administrator

I know that the machines do not print receipts (only the main car park ones print receipts if you pay for parking, the ones in store are just touch screen monitors with no print facility).

Below is a copy of the letter sent to the LO (and a slightly tweaked version was also sent to the MA (changing the names etc.)

Dear Sir/Madam,

I have been advised that you are the land owners of the Newhall Walk Shopping Centre in Sutton Coldfield.
I am writing to you as my disabled mother has been issued with a PCN by Excel Parking Limited, claiming that my mother did not comply with the requirements to park in the car park on a visit earlier this year because she did not pay for or validate her parking.

We have appealed against the PCN as my mother was shopping in B&M and validated her parking on the screens inside the store.  Excel are denying this even though my mother has a witness to her entering the information correctly into the in-store terminal.  I have been into B&M to request CCTV footage to prove this but the store manager said that the footage had already been overwritten.  

Excel Parking have refused to cancel the PCN and have not replied to an email I sent on 1st July (see email chain below) and on 6th July they requested confirmation that they can discuss the matter with me, which my mother provided on 8th July.  They have not replied to me since, but instead sent a further threatening letter to my mother dated 10th July. 

I have taken legal advice on behalf of my mother, who is 73 years old and is disabled, with blue badges and in receipt of higher rate mobility element of Disability Living Allowance and was driving a Motability vehicle at the time of the visit to Newhall Walk, all of which we are happy to provide evidence of.  The advice that I have been given is that I should write to you as Land Owners, and also to the Managing Agents, Railpen, to advise you of the actions of Excel Parking Ltd. as King Edward Foundation are jointly and severally liable, along with the Managing Agents, Railpen for ensuring adherance to the Equality Act 2010 and that you have a duty to avoid "indirect disability discrimination" by applying a blanket term or policy with no flexibility for disabled people.  We have made Excel aware on several occasions now that my mother is disabled and a blue badge holder in receipt of higher rate mobility allowance so we would expect the ticket to be cancelled immediately. 

If Excel continue pursuing my mother for payment of this PCN, we will be left with no alternative but to appoint Solicitors to make a complaint to the Equality and Human Rights Commission and also consider making a formal claim via the Small Claims Court against all parties for distress and disability discrimination, supported by the Equality Act 2010.

In light of this, I would appreciate if you would liaise with Excel Parking Ltd. and request that the cancel the PCN and refrain from sending any further threatening letters to my mother.

Also, as a further issue, we have also been advised that there is a legal requirement for the machines that validate the parking to provide receipts under "The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013", which the machines in this store do not provide as they do not provide either a digital or physical confirmation that can be kept for future reference.  Under Section 16. (1) In the case of a distance contract the trader must give the consumer confirmation of the contract on a durable medium.  "Durable medium" means paper or email, or any other medium that

1. allows information to be addressed personally to the recipient,
2. enables the recipient to store the information in a way accessible for future reference for a period that is long enough for the purposes of the information, and
3. allows the unchanged reproduction of the information stored;

The in-store validation machines do not provide this functionality.

I am sorry to have to trouble you with this matter but Excel Parking are being unreasonable and I do not appreciate their bullying tactics that they are employing to try to get money out of my mother when she fully complied with the requirements to park in the car park for 1 hour to get a few items of shopping.  She has been so upset by this situation that she will no longer shop at Newhall Walk any more as she is scared she will get another ticket.

I look forward to your response.

Best regards

I have not heard back yet from the Managing Agents but the Land Owners have responded as follows:

Dear Sir,
Whilst we appreciate how frustrating these parking notices are, particularly for someone who is disabled, the responsibility for managing the car park lies with our tenant alone, RailPen. 
Warm regards
Laura

Does anybody have any advice on how to proceed with responding to these emails?  I have drafted a couple of responses to but want to make sure I have not missed anything and don't do anything I shouldn't. 

Excel are basically saying they provide receipts, which the in store machines don't provide.  They are also refusing to give any information about land owners and managing agents (which I found anyway) and are refusing to deal with any further disputes.  King Edward Foundation are saying that they are not responsible for anything to do with the car park.

Any further advice on how to respond would be much appreciated.

Best regards,

Ian

Coupon-mad

I'd send a Letter before Claim in your Mum's name, to Excel and RailPen, stating that she will now be seeking not less than £500 damages for distress and disability discrimination, including aggravated breaches of:

- the Equality Act 2010
- the GDPR/Data Protection Act 2018
- the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008
- the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013

ianp_1977

Thanks @Coupon-mad - Excel have today sent a "Letter Before Claim" to my mother along with a form which is confusing as it looks like a legal document but I don't think it is and not sure whether I should reply to it or not.  I have attached the correspondence in case this helps?  She has been really upset by this letter and I am 100% going to take this as far as it needs to go as they are really worrying her.

In terms of the letter you mentioned sending in your last message, can I just as check a couple of things please:

1.  is it ok to email them or does it have to go by post?  Is it small claims court action that I need to tell them we will be applying to for damages?
2. will I need to explain how they have breached each of those pieces of legislation?  
3. Excel mentioned in one of their replies that they have provided disabled bays and seem to be relying on that and saying that she didn't put her reg number into the machine (which is not correct).  Can they rely on that as complying?
4. Do I tell them that they have a certain amount of time to reply or anything in the letter threatening action?

Copies of the correspondence received today are below; any advice on responding would be much appreciated as she has been really upset today when this letter arrived.  Thanks again for your help with this.

KeithP

You need to respond to that Letter Before Claim as described in the second post on the NEWBIES thread.

Le_Kirk

KeithP said:

You need to respond to that Letter Before Claim as described in the second post on the NEWBIES thread.

....... but you don't need to fill in their financial forms.

ianp_1977

KeithP said:

You need to respond to that Letter Before Claim as described in the second post on the NEWBIES thread.

Thanks @KeithP and @Le_Kirk for the advice.  I have just read through the second post as advised.  It mentions not to use the Reply Forms - should I not respond at all to those?  Do I just acknowledge receipt of them when I send the SAR, as advised?  Excel mentioned in their last email before the LBC that the machines provide receipts, however, the in-store validation ones do not (they are just touch screens), should I ask for any information in relation to that?

I have complained to the LA who has said that it is nothing to do with them, despite mentioning my mother's disability and the Equality Act 2010 breaches, along with the breach of the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 as I was advised to do previously in this thread.  The MA have ignored my email completely.

Thanks again for the advice on this!