Are U1of 3million+ #ExcludedUK Getting NO Govt Support? Join us!

Grumpy_chap

amykirk1996 said:

Jonesy1977 said:

jimkelly said:

jimkelly said:

I have to say the lack of empathy towards those "excluded" from certain quarters is disappointing.  It smacks of "I'm alright Jack, so sod them".

Whether you agree with the cause or not, whether you agree with the numbers or not, whether you think someone should be included in the numbers, whether you agree with the way they have gone/are going about it, surely let's have some compassion and support for people who are very worried at the present time, have had no income for months and are genuinely struggling.

Not one post has fundamentally disagreed that certain groups have been excluded and that there are systemic issues and there is no suggestion whatsoever that there is a lack of empathy.

@Grumpy_chap for one still refuses to accept a single person has been excluded / forgotten.

That's not true.
It is just that the vocal campaigners do not seem to fit in sectors that have been offered NO support.  I do not say that is that these group did not receive sufficient support, just that the NO support claim is not realistic for the majority that post claiming NO support.

LilElvis

yellow1231231 said:

i think they would be better served complaining about the actual welfare system universal credit wish punishes the prudent with the savings limit and rewards the feckless as every single person in the 3 million can go onto universal credit 

Not necessarily true as Universal Credit is assessed on household income, so a person might not qualify because of their partner's earnings, whether they have savings or not.

Jonesy1977

Jeremy535897 said:

amykirk1996 said:

Jonesy1977 said:

jimkelly said:

jimkelly said:

I have to say the lack of empathy towards those "excluded" from certain quarters is disappointing.  It smacks of "I'm alright Jack, so sod them".

Whether you agree with the cause or not, whether you agree with the numbers or not, whether you think someone should be included in the numbers, whether you agree with the way they have gone/are going about it, surely let's have some compassion and support for people who are very worried at the present time, have had no income for months and are genuinely struggling.

Not one post has fundamentally disagreed that certain groups have been excluded and that there are systemic issues and there is no suggestion whatsoever that there is a lack of empathy.

@Grumpy_chap for one still refuses to accept a single person has been excluded / forgotten.

Take a look at this lady who was on BBC Breakfast this morning - 

https://twitter.com/salestrainingit/status/1275017935808053248

I am very clear in my mind that a lot of people have been excluded from help, some rightfully so (like me), and others who were very unlucky. I have particular sympathy for those who left employment after 5 April 2019 to become self employed too long ago to be rehired. I also sympathise with the annual PAYE scheme exclusion, but the point has been made that if you can afford to pay yourself only once a year, and you did so 3 months ago, what is the problem? That was the situation in the BBC Breakfast item. I suspect dividends were taken, which of course is another of the issues. To my mind CJRS never sat properly with sole director companies, because CJRS was supposed to be about preserving jobs, not supporting employee income (although it does). The trouble is that nobody has come up with a practical solution that can be automated from the information HMRC already had at 19 March 2020, at least for the dividend issue or the newly self employed.

The BBC Breakfast item also did not address the option of 100% backed BBLS Loan or 80% Backed CBILS Loan or the fact that the 20 contractors mentioned in the piece may well have been able to furlough themselves or BBLS or CBILS themselves as viable business in their own right.  The core issue comes down to a fundamental question of the willingness of Company Directors to accept the legal responsibility and corresponding risk of operating a limited company.  I would absolutely support payments made to micro business but it the absence of any practical suggestions by #Excluded would need to be in the form of loans (BBLS should be covering most situations).   If a company is failing the BBLS loan application then this is a different question but will result in a every decreasing number of those disenfranchised and further reduce the already disputed 3 million which is the core claim of the OP.  I would support this aspect of the campaign but to simply ask for 80% of dividend payments (in lieu of income) is unworkable.  

gary83

yellow1231231 said:

i think they would be better served complaining about the actual welfare system universal credit wish punishes the prudent with the savings limit and rewards the feckless as every single person in the 3 million can go onto universal credit 

The time to start objecting to something on moral grounds shouldn’t just be when it starts to effect you. The excluded group, along with most of the rest of us didn't speak out on UC in the past, but should start campaigning now? I’m sure that most of us, including those that would now benefit by abolishing the means testing element would all have been up in arms and wouldn’t have quietly accepted the tax increases required to provide UC for everyone at any point in the recent past.

yellow1231231

LilElvis said:

yellow1231231 said:

i think they would be better served complaining about the actual welfare system universal credit wish punishes the prudent with the savings limit and rewards the feckless as every single person in the 3 million can go onto universal credit 

Not necessarily true as Universal Credit is assessed on household income, so a person might not qualify because of their partner's earnings, whether they have savings or not.

i know i said the universal credit was unfair and if they focused surely on that which is well known before covid they would have my sympathy but they dont 

boyleminer

People on this forum are obsessing with the 3 million figure without knowing for sure how many people have been left behind. There is a valid argument that some people may fall into more than one category but there are more groups appearing all the time with more people who have been excluded. There are also many people who did receive something but nowhere near enough to cover their living costs. Many people had to apply for the bounce back loan so officially they have been supported but as they don’t know when their business can reopen again the bounce back loan could jeopardise their livelihoods even further.  Nobody can say with absolute certainty how many people have been left out but what we can say with absolute certainty is these are real people with real families with real lives who through no fault of their own are facing serious hardship. Perhaps before picking at flaws in the campaign, try see things through the perspective of those good hard working tax payers who’s lives have been ripped apart by these massive loopholes in all support packages and maybe offer something constructive rather than being ridiculously negativity. You could also say nothing at all. It’s easier to get on with your own lives than it is to !!!!!! and moan about people who are being condemned to poverty 

Grumpy_chap

boyleminer said:

People on this forum are obsessing with the 3 million figure without knowing for sure how many people have been left behind. There is a valid argument that some people may fall into more than one category but there are more groups appearing all the time with more people who have been excluded. There are also many people who did receive something but nowhere near enough to cover their living costs. Many people had to apply for the bounce back loan so officially they have been supported but as they don’t know when their business can reopen again the bounce back loan could jeopardise their livelihoods even further.  Nobody can say with absolute certainty how many people have been left out but what we can say with absolute certainty is these are real people with real families with real lives who through no fault of their own are facing serious hardship. Perhaps before picking at flaws in the campaign, try see things through the perspective of those good hard working tax payers who’s lives have been ripped apart by these massive loopholes in all support packages and maybe offer something constructive rather than being ridiculously negativity. You could also say nothing at all. It’s easier to get on with your own lives than it is to !!!!!! and moan about people who are being condemned to poverty 

The 3 million figure originates from the campaign, who should be able to justify it but seem unable to do so.

"people who did receive something but nowhere near enough to cover their living costs" - anything more than UC is a win, is it not?

"these are real people with real families with real lives who through no fault of their own are facing serious hardship"  There are some in this position, but #ExcludedUK seems to be little concerned with them.  #Excluded is too focused on high earners who failed to make any provision for a rainy day

No-one is gripeing and moaning about people who are being condemned to poverty.  #ExcludedUK are also failing to say how these people would be helped with a constructive alteration to the coronavirus support.  Where clear failing have been campaigned for in a constructive and focused way, the system has been revised - materinty returners, Reservists returning, school meals etc.

I consider myself a "good hardworking taxpayer" but that does not automatically mean I should be given massive generous handouts.

yellow1231231

gary83 said:

yellow1231231 said:

i think they would be better served complaining about the actual welfare system universal credit wish punishes the prudent with the savings limit and rewards the feckless as every single person in the 3 million can go onto universal credit 

The time to start objecting to something on moral grounds shouldn’t just be when it starts to effect you. The excluded group, along with most of the rest of us didn't speak out on UC in the past, but should start campaigning now? I’m sure that most of us, including those that would now benefit by abolishing the means testing element would all have been up in arms and wouldn’t have quietly accepted the tax increases required to provide UC for everyone at any point in the recent past.

it dosnt effect me in fact i have never received a penny of assistance from the government and why would there be tax increases they could cut elsewhere in the benifit system like child benefit if you want to have children you should pay not the taxpayers or working tax credit  and as it happened i have mentioned the unfairness of universal credit before covid 

gary83

amykirk1996 said:

Jonesy1977 said:

jimkelly said:

jimkelly said:

I have to say the lack of empathy towards those "excluded" from certain quarters is disappointing.  It smacks of "I'm alright Jack, so sod them".

Whether you agree with the cause or not, whether you agree with the numbers or not, whether you think someone should be included in the numbers, whether you agree with the way they have gone/are going about it, surely let's have some compassion and support for people who are very worried at the present time, have had no income for months and are genuinely struggling.

Not one post has fundamentally disagreed that certain groups have been excluded and that there are systemic issues and there is no suggestion whatsoever that there is a lack of empathy.

@Grumpy_chap for one still refuses to accept a single person has been excluded / forgotten.

Take a look at this lady who was on BBC Breakfast this morning - 

https://twitter.com/salestrainingit/status/1275017935808053248

Going back to the Subject of which people the excluded Campaign are choosing to campaign for and which case studies they are using to promote their cause look at the picture above, the same lady who was telling her tale of woe this morning on the news about how much her business was suffering was using the same twitter account only 5 days ago to say she’s seen an increase in demand for training lately. Again the lack of consistency is undermining the cause for those who genuinely need more assistance.

you only have to look at the new starter furlough campaign to find lots more examples of people who started a new job & haven’t been eligible for any support, they have no business currently seeing an upturn In demand due to Covid and no end in sight, unfortunately for them by being lumped in with the whole excluded campaign they’re much more likely to all fail together 

gary83

jimkelly said:

I have to say the lack of empathy towards those "excluded" from certain quarters is disappointing.  It smacks of "I'm alright Jack, so sod them".

Whether you agree with the cause or not, whether you agree with the numbers or not, whether you think someone should be included in the numbers, whether you agree with the way they have gone/are going about it, surely let's have some compassion and support for people who are very worried at the present time, have had no income for months and are genuinely struggling.

Seems it’s not just the people that have been “excluded” that lack empathy.....

yellow1231231 said:

it dosnt effect me in fact i have never received a penny of assistance from the government and why would there be tax increases they could cut elsewhere in the benifit system like child benefit if you want to have children you should pay not the taxpayers or working tax credit  and as it happened i have mentioned the unfairness of universal credit before covid