Are U1of 3million+ #ExcludedUK Getting NO Govt Support? Join us!

boyleminer

Jonesy1977 said:

boyleminer said:

Uxb1 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

To get NO support, you have to fall into ALL of those groups.  I do not believe that is 3 million people.
The coronavirus support schemes are unbelievably generous.  I have yet to meet any individual anywhere who is getting NO support, except for if they don't chose to claim the support that is available.

I'm one of those excluded and I full agree that I should NOT be getting any support.
I'm semi- early-retired doing part time self employed work such that my income from self employment is on average just less than half my full income from all sources. So I'm excluded by that reason - and to be honest quite right too. 
The Chancellor woudl probably describe my self employment as almost a hobby time employment.

  I am one of the three million hard working tax payers excluded from any financial support whatsoever during this pandemic. Just because you don’t know any, that doesn’t mean we don’t exist. I worked on the northern line extension as a miner, digging tunnels by hand. On that project I was paid payee. When the tunnels  were finished I was laid off and went on to work on the bank station capacity upgrades doing similar work were I was paid as a self employed sub contractor. How I am paid is not my choice, it’s down to the main contractor. Please tell me why that is so wrong that me and my family should suffer financial hardship 

If you took the time to read the posts made by those querying the validity of #Excluded claims you will see with clarity that there is not 3 million hard working tax payers excluded.  That is not to say you are not hard working it is also not to say that you personally have not been excluded, it is merely pointing out the factual and moral reality of some individuals circumstances including the OP.  I should also point out that you ability (or inability) to have a "fight" as you have stated on this board is not useful discourse.  It did make me chuckle though.

I never threatened anyone. Someone misunderstood me. I was accused of trolling and I was simply giving someone the opportunity to see me in person so I could prove I am not trolling anyone 

gary83

you asked “Please show me examples of the misrepresentations and inaccuracies being made my excluded” I’ve reposted the campaign’s PR showing their list, and hi lighted several of the errors and farcical claims included in it, you haven’t responded to that? instead you’ve resorted to claiming that we can all turn up at your house or tried to make disagreeing with the Campaign an un patriotic or anti military stance (I’m pretty sure excluded can probably count amongst their members ex NHS staff, teachers, Firemen, policemen but you seem to be only focusing on the ex military members?) 

I’ve told you along with most people on here, I’d abandon the excluded campaign and focus on single issues like the new starters rather than try and be all things to all people.

jimkelly

jimkelly said:

I have to say the lack of empathy towards those "excluded" from certain quarters is disappointing.  It smacks of "I'm alright Jack, so sod them".

Whether you agree with the cause or not, whether you agree with the numbers or not, whether you think someone should be included in the numbers, whether you agree with the way they have gone/are going about it, surely let's have some compassion and support for people who are very worried at the present time, have had no income for months and are genuinely struggling.

GaleSF63

boyleminer said:

 The figure shouldn’t matter anyway as no one should have been left out and that’s what excluded are fighting for. 

Of course the figures matter or  the campaign is being undermined right from the start. It makes it look as if you haven't bothered to find out exactly what you are campaigning for.

boyleminer

GaleSF63 said:

boyleminer said:

 The figure shouldn’t matter anyway as no one should have been left out and that’s what excluded are fighting for. 

Of course the figures matter or  the campaign is being undermined right from the start. It makes it look as if you haven't bothered to find out exactly what you are campaigning for.

What I meant was it shouldn’t matter whether it’s 3 million or one person nobody should be left out 

boyleminer

gary83 said:

you asked “Please show me examples of the misrepresentations and inaccuracies being made my excluded” I’ve reposted the campaign’s PR showing their list, and hi lighted several of the errors and farcical claims included in it, you haven’t responded to that? instead you’ve resorted to claiming that we can all turn up at your house or tried to make disagreeing with the Campaign an un patriotic or anti military stance (I’m pretty sure excluded can probably count amongst their members ex NHS staff, teachers, Firemen, policemen but you seem to be only focusing on the ex military members?) 

I’ve told you along with most people on here, I’d abandon the excluded campaign and focus on single issues like the new starters rather than try and be all things to all people.

I tried to respond but for some reason the comment didnt appear. Of the groups you mentioned l, you’re right. Some people in those categories got support but others fell through the cracks. I’m self employed so that makes me entitled to seiss. I lost out because of the 50% rule. 

gary83

jimkelly said:

I have to say the lack of empathy towards those "excluded" from certain quarters is disappointing.  It smacks of "I'm alright Jack, so sod them".

Whether you agree with the cause or not, whether you agree with the numbers or not, whether you think someone should be included in the numbers, whether you agree with the way they have gone/are going about it, surely let's have some compassion and support for people who are very worried at the present time, have had no income for months and are genuinely struggling.

People can be empathetic and still disagree with the statements & statistics the excluded
campaign are creating if they’re incorrect. Just agreeing with everything they and their supporters say would not necessarily be demonstrating empathy, it might just be enabling and not helpful to anyone either.

[Deleted User]

boyleminer said:

GaleSF63 said:

Of course the figures matter or  the campaign is being undermined right from the start. It makes it look as if you haven't bothered to find out exactly what you are campaigning for.

What I meant was it shouldn’t matter whether it’s 3 million or one person nobody should be left out 

The figures matter because they should be should be used to gain credibility, instead the figures discredit the "Excluded" campaign. Realistic estimates put the number somewhere between 200,000 and a million people where the help is deemed inadequate (only nsJSA and UC).

Whilst it would be nice to believe that everyone could be helped it is just not realistic, in the case of CRJS and SEISS the government chose to not make perfection the enemy of action. The truth is that in no country has there been a perfect response, the UK's financial support system is not the best, but it is not the worst either, it is probably in the top five globally and definitely the top ten, the German system for example is better. However why many of those countries has is much stronger social security systems funded by higher taxes, in Germany for example if you lose your job then for the first year your unemployment benefits are the average of your post tax income for the last three years and higher than that if you have children. In those countries it is funded by higher taxation in general, the governments have the money to fund those systems, whilst in the UK the bottom two thirds of earners have the lowest effective rate of income taxation in the EU, although the top third has the sixth highest rate of income taxation, other taxes are also equivalent or higher. In the UK most people vote for lower taxes on themselves and often higher benefits for themselves if they are on them (negative taxation), so our social security systems are much weaker.

The UK has much less generous social security systems but also the CJRS and SEISS were probably over generous, probably because the government was aware that there would be uproar if many normal taxpayers were forced to rely on UC. The systems created are not perfect, an estimated 1-5% of people who were working in February will miss out on both systems, but in political terms they have done enough, those who do not receive help will have a tougher ride, but the economy will not collapse and those who lose out will rebuild as they always have done after every recession. 

Personally I will probably lose 80% of my income this year vs last, I would regard myself as lucky if I end up next year back to more than 50%. I am an owner/director of a limited company, remunerated largely by dividend, I get nothing personally from the government, so be it, that's life.

LilElvis

boyleminer said:

dunstonh said:

I am not threatening anyone. In fact due to a work related injury I am unable to fight. Trolls hide behind false profiles. I’m simply letting you know who I am and giving you the opportunity to see that. 

Nobody knows who you are.  Stop talking rubbish.

You dispute the 3 million figure but where is your proof?

Proof is easy.  £3million is the estimated number that fall into each of the categories assuming that every single person in those categories is unique (i.e. they dont fall into any other category) and that each of those people (and their multiple personalities) is unable to claim support despite many of them not requiring support.

If you had actually read the responses you would understand that.

The figure shouldn’t matter anyway as no one should have been left out and that’s what excluded are fighting for. 

excluded are also fighting for people that are not excluded and include groups that looks like greed.

There are ex military personnel in this group and while excluded are campaigning for them, your negativity towards excluded is not only unhelpful but is an insult to everyone involved including those military personnel 

That is just pathetic.   You are not doing those who served in the military any favours.

My name is Connell Boyle. I live in south London. I’m 34 years old and I dig tunnels for a living. Now you know who I am so you can stop calling me a troll. Some people may be counted twice but it’s impossible to tell. There are also many people who did receive some form of support but very little who aren’t included in these figures so it probably balances itself out. I really don’t understand why you have such an issue with a group campaigning for those who need help

Infrastructure projects in London requiring digging have been reopened for weeks. My husband has visited numerous sites over the last few weeks - including several HS2 ones - and soil is being removed by the lorry load/ train load. 

Jonesy1977

jimkelly said:

jimkelly said:

I have to say the lack of empathy towards those "excluded" from certain quarters is disappointing.  It smacks of "I'm alright Jack, so sod them".

Whether you agree with the cause or not, whether you agree with the numbers or not, whether you think someone should be included in the numbers, whether you agree with the way they have gone/are going about it, surely let's have some compassion and support for people who are very worried at the present time, have had no income for months and are genuinely struggling.

Blanket accusations of lack of empathy are erroneous .  Not one post has fundamentally disagreed that certain groups have been excluded and that there are systemic issues and there is no suggestion whatsoever that there is a lack of empathy.  The posts that you categorise as having a lack of empathy are clear, measured and factual and they dispute the inclusion of certain groups specifically Limited Company Owner/Directors who simply do have access to support (as detailed numerous times in the thread) and I say this as a Company Director (who pays themselves a low salary and dividends)  but accepts that as a business owner it is my responsibility.  I have availed myself of support in the form of CBILS which is a loan that will take me 7 years to pay back and I have no issue with this as I want my business to survive, my staff to keep their jobs and an opportunity to grow and generate profits in the future.  If I used your logic, as a member of the #Excluded 3 million I should be paid a grant linked to my dividends which would not be a loan and if rolled out would mean that all company owners are simply given back profits from previous years.  boyleminer for example has truly been caught out due to the systemic structure of the seiss scheme and specifically the breach of the 50%. I for one would fully support specific campaigns for specific legitimate issue such as this and empathise hugely with the circumstances some such as boyleminer find themselves in but to suggest that there are 3 million people in a catch all group that should be given support is false and damaging to the chances of remedying the circumstances of those who are truly #excluded surely?