IMPORTANT REMINDER: Please make sure your posts do not contain any personally identifiable information. If you are uploading images, please take extra care that you have redacted all personal information.

Surprise CCJ - please help!

edited 27 April 2020 at 2:47PM in Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking
93 replies 7.8K views
1457910

Replies

  • 123MrsT123MrsT Forumite
    37 Posts
    10 Posts First Anniversary
    Forumite
    I had my set aside hearing this morning and it did not go well at all.

    I was so very upset by the way the judge spoke to me and dismissed any of my claims that I actually started crying on the phone (I'm currently pregnant with my first child so don't think the pregnancy hormones helped). I have been stressed about this for months and months and couldn't sleep last night before the hearing and had everything prepped and had gone over it so many times but it made no difference. 

    The judge started off on the Consent Order and I explained honestly that was an error and the original intention and she said that it wasn't very good for me at all.

    The judge focused on the fact that there were tickets on my car and that the the parking company said they'd sent notices to what was the address they would have found at the time from the DVLA. I said my understanding that this was around the defective service of the court papers which were sent to my old address despite Gladstone's finding my new address and me being there 12 months before they were served. I explained I would never have ignored court papers and was not given a chance to come and defend my claim. 

    The judge said they had stated the purpose of the hearing at the outset (completely dismissed my comment) and continued to ask if I had got the tickets attached to my car and why I didn't respond. I said that my husband and I would have seen them and the reason there was 3 on pretty much consecutive days was as we didn't drive our car often and was parked in a secure underground car park. I explained we didn't get the letters because we were in living in London at the time in temporary rented accommodation and hadn't updated my address to this. I also explained I'd not referenced this as didn't believe it applicable to the set aside hearing.

    The judge focussed only on the tickets issued 2 years before the court papers and not the service of the court papers and would not listen to me explain. They refused to grant the mandatory set aside on the basis that I hadn't responded to Gladstone's when I would have found the tickets on my car or when they wrote to me at an address which was my fault for not updating. Nothing about serving the court papers. I attempted to question / explain my point but at this point she said it was not for me to talk. 

    The judge then went on to see if I had a reasonable chance of defending my claim. The judge first asked if I was a lawyer to which I answered no - no idea what the point of this was, can only assume to Gladstone's point above. As a note, I sound quite young (I'm not, I'm 34 and I'm director level at a large bank in audit so I'm not thick and deal with very serious and direct/challenging conversations practically every day but for some reason I was just a wreck at this) . They then came to the tenancy agreement noted in my draft defence and asked where the copy of it was (I included an extract in my draft defence).  I said that I understood at this hearing I did not need to submit my full defence so had not done so but would have a copy of this in my emails but did not have it to hand. 

    I then also said my defence was based on the £60 additional charge that they added to each ticket and that I had seen a case a this very court struck out on this basis due to abuse of process and they said that I could not defend in this hearing based on charges. They then told me to look through my emails for my tenancy agreement which I did and whilst I was doing it I checked again around the applicability of the additional charge and was told abruptly I'd already been told about this. 

    I found my tenancy agreement but could not find where anything in it that specified the bay number whilst on the phone. I explained I recalled that I did have the bay number specified in the check in and check out inventory on the permit (a photo) with the fob to get into the gated car park. All flats have an allocated space.

    The judge then ordered that it would be set aside if I submitted my full defence including evidence of my right to park in the bay to the court  and Gladstone's within 7 days. As the judge was typing the order my husband who'd overheard had found the inventory with this and the judge asked me to send, it didn't reach in time to cancel the order but they got it at the end and said they didn't believe this was sufficient and that I could speak to Gladstone's separately to see if they were willing to set aside but that this would likely cost me. 

    Obviously the judge refused costs. 

    Now I am at a loss of how to evidence my right to park in the bay further than the inventory. Would getting email confirmation from the landlord or agent satisfy this? I know you can have verbal contracts so I am assuming this is what it may fall down to. Annoyingly we lived in 2 other apartments in the complex and I have checked and both of those specify the bay number in the tenancy agreements so no idea why this doesn't but it was advertised with a space, we were told that was the space and the fob and permit was included as part of the inventory exactly as it was with the two other flats. All flats have an allocated space (visitor parking is outside of the gates) and I would question why would they give us the fob and permit with the bay number in the inventory and mark this as included like they did for all furniture and fittings if not included in the lease?

    Any help on next steps would be very appreciated. Am I best getting legal help at this stage?

  • henrik777henrik777 Forumite
    3K Posts
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Forumite
    I'm not sure i've read all your thread so...
    Anyway, if this is a set aside and they knew another address for you before filing the claim, and the court has ignored this, that's very appealable. However, it doesn't appear to me that you  could DIY so i'd definitely seek help. Perhaps an insurance policy has legal cover on it ?

    If in the financial service sector as you say then a CCJ is a disaster ? So you need to appeal i'd imagine.


  • nosferatu1001nosferatu1001 Forumite
    13K Posts
    10,000 Posts Third Anniversary Name Dropper
    Forumite
    Sounds a really crap judge. Error in law. The Set ASide is about service of court papers, not some pieces of paper 2 years previously. 
    They misdirected themselves and worse, didnt listen when you corrected them
    So you have an order? It wasnt clear what the final resolution was ther. 
  • henrik777henrik777 Forumite
    3K Posts
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Forumite
    henrik777 said:
    I'm not sure i've read all your thread so...
    Anyway, if this is a set aside and they knew another address for you before filing the claim, and the court has ignored this, that's very appealable. However, it doesn't appear to me that you  could DIY so i'd definitely seek help. Perhaps an insurance policy has legal cover on it ?

    If in the financial service sector as you say then a CCJ is a disaster ? So you need to appeal i'd imagine.


    Actually you don't need to appeal as

    The judge then ordered that it would be set aside if I submitted my full defence including evidence of my right to park in the bay to the court  and Gladstone's within 7 days. As the judge was typing the order my husband who'd overheard had found the inventory with this and the judge asked me to send, it didn't reach in time to cancel the order but they got it at the end and said they didn't believe this was sufficient and that I could speak to Gladstone's separately to see if they were willing to set aside but that this would likely cost me. 
    But it might be the best way.
  • 123MrsT123MrsT Forumite
    37 Posts
    10 Posts First Anniversary
    Forumite
    Sounds a really crap judge. Error in law. The Set ASide is about service of court papers, not some pieces of paper 2 years previously. 
    They misdirected themselves and worse, didnt listen when you corrected them
    So you have an order? It wasnt clear what the final resolution was ther. 
    Thank you.

    That's what I thought but the judge very clearly gave their reasoning and it was not to do with the service of the papers but the tickets on my car and notices sent to my previous address 2 years ago. I just can't understand it and it was so frustrating that the judge dismissed my points completely and then would not let me talk at all.

    The judge issued an order to set aside providing I submit my full defence within a week, including evidence of my right to park in the bay on the dates of the PCNs, to both the court and Gladstone's. I then asked what would happen and they said the court would read it and make a decision as to whether I had a reasonable chance of defending and if so it would be set aside. They mentioned Gladstone's responding to my evidence as well but it was down to the court for the decision. They also said to note it down as may not receive the order within the 7 days I have so I noted word for word. 

    The judge mentioned an option of speaking with Gladstone's to get their agreement but it would cost me and I'm confused by this to be honest.

    What do you think to my evidence in support of my right to park in the bay? I want to make sure I demonstrate this as best I can and think it may be best to get legal advice as henrik777 notes.
  • 123MrsT123MrsT Forumite
    37 Posts
    10 Posts First Anniversary
    Forumite
    henrik777 said:
    henrik777 said:
    I'm not sure i've read all your thread so...
    Anyway, if this is a set aside and they knew another address for you before filing the claim, and the court has ignored this, that's very appealable. However, it doesn't appear to me that you  could DIY so i'd definitely seek help. Perhaps an insurance policy has legal cover on it ?

    If in the financial service sector as you say then a CCJ is a disaster ? So you need to appeal i'd imagine.


    Actually you don't need to appeal as

    The judge then ordered that it would be set aside if I submitted my full defence including evidence of my right to park in the bay to the court  and Gladstone's within 7 days. As the judge was typing the order my husband who'd overheard had found the inventory with this and the judge asked me to send, it didn't reach in time to cancel the order but they got it at the end and said they didn't believe this was sufficient and that I could speak to Gladstone's separately to see if they were willing to set aside but that this would likely cost me. 
    But it might be the best way.

    Thank you for your reply. 

    So I should speak to Gladstone's and ask them to agree for the judgement to be set aside on the basis that I've a reasonable  prospect of defending, is this correct? 
  • nosferatu1001nosferatu1001 Forumite
    13K Posts
    10,000 Posts Third Anniversary Name Dropper
    Forumite
    I doubt Gladstones will agree to that. THey dont want you to get a set aside. 
    I would do as the judge told you, and get your defence in within the seven days
    But again, the judge was wrongt in law. They did not apply the test inherent in CPR13.2 and so, IF you dont get a set aside you have an obvious appeal route. 
  • 123MrsT123MrsT Forumite
    37 Posts
    10 Posts First Anniversary
    Forumite
    I doubt Gladstones will agree to that. THey dont want you to get a set aside. 
    I would do as the judge told you, and get your defence in within the seven days
    But again, the judge was wrongt in law. They did not apply the test inherent in CPR13.2 and so, IF you dont get a set aside you have an obvious appeal route. 

    I've contacted the director of the agency and asked them if they could write a letter confirming that I had the right to park in the bay on the dates of the PCN as part of my tenancy and noted that whilst the fob and permit were included in the inventory etc.  the judge wasn't sure this would be sufficient to evidence it (they were good with providing me with a copy of the tenancy agreement when I found out about my CCJ so hopefully they will come back and this will go some way to evidencing).

    I also asked them if they would have a contract with the landlord that would show the flat is rented through them with the allocated bay. Then just to cover off every option, asked if there was another way they could help me evidence that I rented to the flat with the allocated bay in case there was anything else they had. 

    If I don't hear back from the agent tomorrow, I'll contact the landlord to see if they're able to assist. 

    I checked my insurance and no legal cover so I think the next best option is to check with citizen's advice or my work employee helpline to recommend a solicitor as at least then I have some comfort about reputation as don't want to end up with one of these dodgy companies you read about that say they can get rid of CCJs etc. 

    Apart from the order will I get any summary from the judge as to their decision? I know the call was recorded but am unsure if they'll put in writing their decision?
  • nosferatu1001nosferatu1001 Forumite
    13K Posts
    10,000 Posts Third Anniversary Name Dropper
    Forumite
    I mean that's pretty good evidence of a right to park.  No idea what else the judge expects!

    Just the order. From what I understand just the order right 
  • JohnershJohnersh Forumite
    960 Posts
    500 Posts Second Anniversary Name Dropper Photogenic
    Forumite
    The order may not be printed within the next 7 days. I'd finalise the defence and supporting docs to show you had absolute entitlement to park. No reason not to... 

    It sounds like you *may* have passed hurdle 1 under 13.3 - entitlement to set aside, but not yet satisfied hurdle 2 - that there is real prospect of successfully defending.

    If you pass hurdle 2, it's set aside and game on, without the need for appeals or any other nonsense. I mean no need to care about method, provided result is what you need. 
Sign In or Register to comment.
LATEST MSE NEWS AND GUIDES