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Surprise CCJ - please help!

edited 27 April 2020 at 2:47PM in Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking
93 replies 7.8K views
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  • 123MrsT123MrsT Forumite
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    1) why do you understand this? Does the order Instruct you to do so? If it doesn't, what makes yo7 believe this?
    2) what update do you propose? What has changed since then? What did you submit? WS, exhibits draft order and draft defence?
    3) no, as you have proof it was received. 
    Thanks for the response nosferatu1001! 

    1) This is what the Notice of Hearing Application states: 

    Who emails the court the documents? Where any party is legally represented: 
    The legal representative(s) must create a court bundle for the hearing in accordance with the relevant court rules about bundles. If more than one party is legally represented then the court expects the lawyers to agree between them who will provide the bundle. The usual rules for doing so apply and the bundle must be emailed to the court as explained above. 

    Who emails the court the documents? Where no party is legally represented: 
    You will need to email your documents to the court as explained above. [Goes on to explain what to include and how to present them]. 

    Therefore as the parking firm is represented by Gladstones I would have thought that I need to send my documents to them given I am not legally represented? I am planning on calling them tomorrow to get an email address for them as well as information on my case (don't imagine them to be helpful). I will update on here once I've spoken with them. 

    2) I submitted my witness statement, draft order and draft defence as well as evidence to back up my witness statement (i.e. mortgage and council tax statements, credit file change notification etc.). I saw a thread where there was talk of changing the wording of the draft order but I now can't find it and it's not linked in the newbies thread as a change that I can see. I also wanted to check that if I do re-submit what I have that I won't need to re-sign as these were signed in May when I submitted my N244. 

    3) OK, thank you.
  • 123MrsT123MrsT Forumite
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    123MrsT said:
    Hello!

    After what feels like forever, I finally have my set-aside hearing next week. I can't believe how much timescales vary by County Court as on reading up on telephone hearings can see people who got a date within a month of filing their N244! This has been like a dark cloud hanging over me for all this time. 

    I have been reading the forum for what I need to do and wanted to double check: 

    1. On my notice of hearing application it states that documents have to be submitted to the court at least 3 days before the hearing. As the parking firm are represented by Gladstones I understand that I must send them my documents to send on to the court. I plan on doing this by email but is it also worth calling as I don't want to miss the deadline if they don't send the documents?

    2. Do I need to update my documents from what was submitted with my N244 (in the above thread) or can I submit the same documents? 

    3. I sent my telephone number as requested on email and asked for confirmation the court had received this and have not received a reply other than the automated email receipt. Is it likely there will be a problem? 

    Many thanks for all of your help! 
    with the paper work you have submitted , gladstones will simply not pick up the phone , ie they will have wasted both yours and the courts time 
    it is far easier to simply not appear , than to be publicly chastised 

    if this is the situation and the judge recides to re conviene st a later date , giving them extra time ensure that the judge is forwarned of your financial outlay so far 

    Thank you for your response blackdog2220!

    Please could you explain your last sentence as I'm not sure I understand? 

    If they don't appear at the set-aside can the judge decide to push this back to another date? Why would this give them extra time to ensure the judge is forewarned of my financial outlay so far? 

    Many thanks!!

  • Le_KirkLe_Kirk Forumite
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    If they don't appear at the set-aside can the judge decide to push this back to another date? Why would this give them extra time to ensure the judge is forewarned of my financial outlay so far? 
    What @blackdog2220 is saying is that if the judge decides to adjourn the hearing, this will disadvantage you and you may/will incur extra costs so you should point this out to the judge and state that you will claim your costs (and this is why you submit a summary costs assessment) due to the claimant's unreasonable behaviour.
  • UmkomaasUmkomaas Forumite
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    I am planning on calling them tomorrow to get an email address for them as well as information on my case (don't imagine them to be helpful). I will update on here once I've spoken with them. 
    They are unlikely to be helpful to you. But now you're at the business end of things, everything in writing!

    GLADSTONES EMAIL ADDRESSES 


    This contains 3 options, it's a bit old now, and, from memory there may be only one of them working. Send your email to all 3 and see what happens.

    Also, we understand [email protected] and [email protected] can both work too. 
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
  • nosferatu1001nosferatu1001 Forumite
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    Yes, you are correct - they are responsible for sending in the bundle!
    If they do not do so, you must send it yourself, obv only your documents, by the deadline, explaining that the respondent (you are the applicant)s legal firm did not cooperate in producing the bundle so you have done the bes tyou can as an unrepresented lay person.
  • 123MrsT123MrsT Forumite
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    I've tried to summarise my update (best as I can!) below: 

    TL;DR: Unsure if the court has the bundle prepared by Gladstones as I was unable to open it from the email they sent and the court has not confirmed. 

    1. I emailed Gladstones my documents and asked them to confirm that they would be preparing the bundle and when they would be submitting this to the court.
    2. Gladstones came back with a generic email about how they would not be attending the hearing. I replied and asked them to confirm on my queries around the bundle and date of submission. 
    3. Gladstones came back and said that they would be preparing a copy and would send this to me. They sent me a copy yesterday (4 days before the hearing) but it showed as empty when I tried to download. I tried to download on my macbook, phone and a windows PC and the pdf would not load. 
    4. I asked Gladstones to resend, which they did and I had the same problem. They replied that it was working their end and that they would post me a copy instead. 
    5. The court only accepts submissions via email and I am concerned that if they sent me what looks like a corrupt / blank document it may also not work for the court. 
    6. I emailed the court (as they do not answer their phones) and asked if they had received the bundle and were successfully able to open it. 
    7. The court replied today saying 'I can confirm that the bundle appears to have been logged on the electronic system at the Court on 23rd December 2020 and all appears to have been successful when logging.' I questioned this as this was around the date I gave them my telephone number for the hearing and my documents were only sent to the Solicitor this week and the bundle submitted by them yesterday.
    8. The court then replied that 'I can confirm that the bundle may have come to our listing section and just not yet be logged on yet. Or it may be that the Solicitors will contact us in the afternoon perhaps.'

    So not very helpful then... I think the best way forward may be to send them my documents attaching emails with Gladstones and the court in case there is a problem and there is no bundle for Monday. Does this sound like the right approach? 

    I did then receive the bundle through the post today and will type out Gladstones argument as to why the judgement should not be set aside in the next post. 
  • 123MrsT123MrsT Forumite
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    Here's a summary of why Gladstones have said the judgement should not be set aside: 

    1. Whilst it is noted that the Defendant moved from her previous address on XXX based on the evidence provided, it is denied that reasonable steps were not taken to locate the Defendant prior to proceedings being issued. 

    No response was received to the letter before claim issued to the Defendant's previous address. As a result trace enquiries were made which provided an additional address, unfortunately, those enquiries were unable to confirm the Defendant's residence at the new address. It has now been confirmed that the additional address is in fact the Defendant's new address. 

    A letter before claim was in fact sent to the Defendant at her current address prior to proceedings. That letter included a copy of the original letter before claim which had been sent to the Defendant's previous address. The Defendant was therefore aware that Gladstones was unclear as to which address the Defendant was resident. The Defendant was asked to contact Gladstones with a view ot narrowing the issues failing which, proceedings would be issued. The Defendant was therefore fully aware of the proposed proceedings and chose to ignore the letter before claim and indeed, failed to contact Gladstones to confirm her correct address. It is therefore denied that the Claimant acted unreasonably as all reasonable steps were taken to trace the Defendant and on this basis, the Claimant should not be penalised due to the Defendant's failures by way of a costs order

    I received no such letter at my current address and there is no copy of the letter sent included in the bundle that I have been sent in the post. If they had found another address for me (my correct address), why did they only issue proceedings to my previous address (from which they had received no response)? 

    2. All of the PCNs issued were affixed to the Defendant's vehicle. Thereafter, reminders were sent to the Defendant at her correct address at the material time yet the Defendant offers no explanation of why she failed to appeal the charges or respond. If the Defendant genuinely believes she had a defence to the claim, the Claimant avers an appeal would have been submitted. 

    I thought that the main part of the set aside was the serving of the court papers? I would never in a million years have ignored court papers. Both my now husband and I would drive that vehicle and I did not receive the letters as they were not sent to the address where I was living which was where the car was parked (but I had not changed where my car was registered so am I at fault here?). 

    3. The Claimant also notes that it is the Defendant's intention to reply upon, for the most part, a generic defence which can be found on the internet and it is highly doubtful that the Defendant would understand the complexities of all the references to the Civil Procedure Rules, the requirements in the Protection and Freedoms Act (POFA) and in established case law, which is often the case when a Defendant is questioned about such references at Court. Indeed, only paragraphs 2.3 to 2.8.1 fo the proposed defence are relevant to the claim. 

    In view of the above, should the judgement be set aside, the Claimant requests that the Defendant be debarred from relying upon any part of an internet defence. 

    This one is just insulting to be honest - I've probably got a better understanding from my research on this forum that the failed solicitors who end up working for Gladsotones have and I didn't just copy and paste and hope for the best! I'll make sure I read up properly for the trial.

    4. It is also noted the Defendant encloses with her application, a Consent Order which is also a generic Order found on the internet. In any event. the Defendant has at no time contacted Gladstones Solicitors with a view to agreeing the draft consent order nor did she seek consent from the Claimant prior to submitting her application. 

    Has this come up in any other hearings? Where else would I get a Consent Order from if I'm defending myself? 

    5. They also go on about how I reference making a SAR and haven't. I referenced in my defence that one part was subject to me making a SAR to get photos of the signs at the time but didn't state that I had. They basically say at this stage they don't believe one is required. 

    6. They say in view of the above that the the Claimant should not be liable for the Defendant's costs as reasonable steps were taken to trace the Defendant. It then states.... 'It is often the case that PCNs are ignored by recipients having knowledge that they intend to move residence, with a view to avoid payment. Whilst the Claimant is unaware whether this has occurred in this instance, it should be noted that all the PCNs were affixed to the vehicle and reminders sent to the Defendant prior to her change of address which she made no attempt to respond upon receipt.'

    The claimant will aver that it is indeed the Defendant who has acted unreasonably by ignoring the PCNs affixed to her vehicle when she knew or ought to have known that the Claimant would pursue her for payment thereof. 

    I didn't ignore the PCNs as I intended to buy a house... really! 

    7. It is our client's position there is;
    i. no real prospect of the Defendant successfully defending the claim (13.3(1)(a));
    ii. no other good reason why the judgement should be set aside (13.3(1)(b)(i)) and;
    iii. no reason why the Defendant should be allowed to defend the claim (13.3(1)(b)(ii))

    They seem to have ignored the mandatory set aside due to defective service (13.2) - they have said here that they had my current address but they only served the documents to my previous address. 

    I also think I have a real prospect of defending. To add, the photos they've included clearly show my permit as slipped down the windscreen a little but is still clearly visible. The signs state 'fully and clearly visible' so not sure if this is worth noting? My primary argument is the fact that my vehicle was pre-authorised in my allocated bay per the terms of my tenancy agreement where there is nothing on having to display a permit (primacy of contract) and the signs also say can be vehicles displaying a permit or 'pre-authorised vehicles parked wholly within their allocated bay' which I was. 
  • nosferatu1001nosferatu1001 Forumite
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    You may need to explain your responses to their response, and it seems reasonable to me. For example - post can go missing. 
    But think about this
    1)
    a) They knew the address wasnt valid, so they do a trace to find your new address
    b) They said they sent something, and when they didnt get a response filed a claim at an address they knew wasnt correct !
    notice how their response stops? They explained and then presumably went "uh oh" and just rushed to as conclusion! 

    2) Absolutely correct, and you would point out to the court that the claimants legally qualified rep  is at best confused and at worst is trying to mislead the court about the matter at hand.
    3) You point that out. You ask how on earth Gladstones can possiblyknow any ofg this, in something they presumably verified with a statement of truth? Tghis is merely guesswork on their part. You find this insulting. 
    4) Did you include a consent order, or merely an Order? Surely you included ther usual 6 point order, which is NOT a consent order?
    5) Sounds like theyr e incompetent as ever
    6) Complete !!!!!!. You are under no compulsion to respond to their clients speculative invoices. If Parliament wanted to put such a BURDEN on a consumer, they had the perfect chance to do so in POFA. You aver that Gladastones is trying to hide their incompetence in knowingly filing a claim against an address that was not good, and signing a statement otf truth claiming otherwise. 
    7) Of course you have a real chance of defending
    Gladstones are so, so bad at this
  • 123MrsT123MrsT Forumite
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    You may need to explain your responses to their response, and it seems reasonable to me. For example - post can go missing. 
    But think about this
    1)
    a) They knew the address wasnt valid, so they do a trace to find your new address
    b) They said they sent something, and when they didnt get a response filed a claim at an address they knew wasnt correct !
    notice how their response stops? They explained and then presumably went "uh oh" and just rushed to as conclusion! 

    2) Absolutely correct, and you would point out to the court that the claimants legally qualified rep  is at best confused and at worst is trying to mislead the court about the matter at hand.
    3) You point that out. You ask how on earth Gladstones can possiblyknow any ofg this, in something they presumably verified with a statement of truth? Tghis is merely guesswork on their part. You find this insulting. 
    4) Did you include a consent order, or merely an Order? Surely you included ther usual 6 point order, which is NOT a consent order?
    5) Sounds like theyr e incompetent as ever
    6) Complete !!!!!!. You are under no compulsion to respond to their clients speculative invoices. If Parliament wanted to put such a BURDEN on a consumer, they had the perfect chance to do so in POFA. You aver that Gladastones is trying to hide their incompetence in knowingly filing a claim against an address that was not good, and signing a statement otf truth claiming otherwise. 
    7) Of course you have a real chance of defending
    Gladstones are so, so bad at this
    Thank you very much nosferatu1001!

    1) What else would I need to explain in this point? I agree post can go missing but I don't believe I've had problems with post at this address and seems odd to me they haven't included a copy of the letter they reference in the bundle. Regardless on whether they sent the letter or not, I see what you're saying in that they have shown they had reason to believe the address at which they sent the claim was not valid as they'd reason enough to do a trace and find my current address. 

    2) Do you think the Judge is likely to see through this too?

    3) Will do - and I'll make sure I am fully aware of everything in there to demonstrate if asked.

    4) I've just double checked and it says Consent Order, I have no idea why as in the this thread it was just order so must have used a template from another thread and copied it in (obviously not correctly!!) I've copied it below: 

    CONSENT ORDER

    UPON the application of the Defendant to set aside a default judgment dated xxxx

    BY CONSENT IT IS ORDERED THAT:-

    1. The default judgment dated 2nd xxx be set aside.

    2. Costs to be reserved.

    3. Unless the Claimant serves a copy of the Claim Form on the Defendant by 4 pm on [date] paragraph 2 shall cease to have effect and the Claimant shall pay the Defendant's costs summarily assessed at £255 and the claim shall be struck out.

    4. If the Claimant serves the claim form as directed in paragraph 3 the Defendant shall file and serve a defence by 4pm on [date].

    5. Should the Claimant discontinue the Claim after the CCJ is set aside, paragraph 2 shall cease to have effect and the Claimant shall pay the Defendant's costs summarily assessed at £255 plus the Defendant's costs for attending the hearing.

    6. That all enforcement be put on hold pending the outcome of the application.

    Dated this ……………………. day of ……………………..

    Signed ………………….…………………. Signed ………………….………………….

    Claimant name

    Claimant full address

    Your Name Your full address

    For and on behalf of the Claimant The Defendant


  • nosferatu1001nosferatu1001 Forumite
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    1) You would just say the above - you never received any such letter, and unusually the respondents legal rep  has failed to supply a copy of this alleged LBC in their bundle. The court should draw the obvious answer which is that the  letter wasn't ever sent.

    No it is even worse than that!
    They knew address A wasnt right
    They traced and found your true address, address B
    They supposedly sent a letter to address B, didnt get as response, so went hey! clearly address B isnt right but we will file a claim at address A, despite knowing this wasn't a good address
    And they confirmed when they filed the claim that they know this is a good address. Which was a lie. 
    At the point they filed the claim, under THEIR best case, they had no good address to serve the claim at. Yet they filed a claim anyway.
    THEIR worst case is that they filed a claim to a known bad address.
    2) See if the judge raises it, and explain it as you did if they do. Should be about 10 seconds at most
    3) 
    4) Yeah you stuffed up there. You were told to find the 6 point draft order almost certainly. A consent order is not suitable for a set aside without consent. Just explain to the court that you stuffed up with the headings, and to please excuse. It is only a draft, but you need to make it clear you didnt talk - and why. Did they not respond to you?

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