POPLA appeal help, please - ParkingEye for a 10 minute overstay, plus NTK question

velvetyfrog

Hello, thank you to everyone who has posted so much valuable information. Having read numerous threads, I am a bit stuck as I can not seem to find the answer to a couple of conundrums, so I would be grateful for any advice. 

Firstly, ParkingEye sent an NTK to the car leasing company. They were given the name of the company that I work for (as a fleet manager). So they sent a PCN to the company, demanding payment. Not inviting us to name the driver. Exceeding the requirement for an NTK to be sent within 14 days of the event. Have they failed the requirements for an enforceable NTK (which they should have sent as they clearly do not have the name of the driver), or have they complied (given that they have already sent one NTK that looks to have been correctly issued)?

Secondly, the "Time in Car Park" is stated on the PCN as 1 hour 40 minutes. The car park has got a 90 minute maximum stay. Have they or haven't they complied with the minimum grace period of 10 minutes required by the BPA Code of Practice?

I am also troubled by the fact that the "Arrival Time" stated above the photo of the car on the letter is 09:53:58. However, the time stamp on the photo underneath shows 09:54:01. Clearly no quality checks and equipment calibration but could this also be a purposeful manipulation, in order to increase the stay period? Stay period according to their "Arrival time" is 1h40m28s. Stay period according to time stamps on entry and exit photos is 1h40m25s. Actual time is anyone's guess as the driver is confident they saw the signs and complied. 

The PCN was issued for a Home Bargains car park, so I called to speak to the Store Manager, who stated that "Home Bargains has hired ParkingEye to manage the car park". I asked if they could consider cancelling the PCN as the driver was a genuine customer but they said "we have got nothing to do with the charges, it is ParkingEye who decide how to manage the car park". I take this to mean that Home Bargains have not expressly authorised ParkingEye to issue PCNs. I asked if Home Bargains own the land and he said no, they rent. 

I would be grateful for any suggestions on what templates to use for a POPLA appeal -  I should have mentioned that I have already "appealed" to ParkingEye on the above points and been unsuccessful, unsurprisingly. I stated that the driver will remain undisclosed.

Most importantly, (I note Coupon-mad's note on another thread "You will NEVER win at POPLA about a overstay in a retail park v ParkingEye") should I just pay it?

Thank you in advance!

Coupon-mad

Most importantly, (I note Coupon-mad's note on another thread "You will NEVER win at POPLA about a overstay in a retail park v ParkingEye") should I just pay it?

No! 
Oops, I should, have added a few caveats to that comment, such as:

(a) unless the overstay is within the grace period, and/or
(b) unless ParkingEye fail to contest the appeal and give in, as they sometimes do, and/or
(c) unless ParkingEye fail to produce the landowner authority, as they sometimes do, and/or
(d) unless they have failed the POFA, as in your case!

Have they failed the requirements for an enforceable NTK (which they should have sent as they clearly do not have the name of the driver), or have they complied (given that they have already sent one NTK that looks to have been correctly issued)?

They've failed to send your company a Notice to Hirer and to enclose the hire agreement etc., that has to be served with a NTH.  For the purposes of this appeal and the case itself, the company is 'the hirer' and you need to start with that point.  See any other Notice to Hirer POPLA appeal threads (search the forum and specifically search the POLA Decisions sticky thread - using 'control & f' keyword search on your keyboard) because it isn't about 14 days at all.

Secondly, the "Time in Car Park" is stated on the PCN as 1 hour 40 minutes. The car park has got a 90 minute maximum stay. Have they or haven't they complied with the minimum grace period of 10 minutes required by the BPA Code of Practice?

Yes (they have complied) if the PCN was issued after the new January BPA CoP started, which has altered the grace period down to 5 minutes (let's all hand it to the BPA, they really are trying hard, in that 'race to the bottom' against the IPC!).

D_P_Dance

You will NEVER win at POPLA about a overstay in a retail park v ParkingEye"

I disagree their signs are pants. Read this

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5972164/parking-eye-signs-oxford-road-reading

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP., it can cause the scammer extra costs and work, and in some cases, cancellation.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

velvetyfrog

Coupon-mad said:

Yes (they have complied) if the PCN was issued after the new January BPA CoP started, which has altered the grace period down to 5 minutes (let's all hand it to the BPA, they really are trying hard, in that 'race to the bottom' against the IPC!).

Weird, I read the CoP (Version 8 - January 2020) in detail and it still says (in Section 13) - "13.3 Where a parking location is one where a limited period of parking is permitted, or where drivers contract to park for a defined period and pay for that service in advance (Pay & Display), this would be considered as a parking event and a Grace Period of at least 10 minutes must be added to the end of a parking event before you issue a PCN." 

I thought 5 minutes is for unauthorised parking (i.e. the driver is not allowed to park there at all), which was not the case here. But I am new to this, I could be misunderstanding.

Thank you so much for the pointer to Notice to Hirer, which I had missed completely. 

Redx

The emphasis here should be on the failure to comply with POFA due to it being a hire vehicle , nothing to do with grace periods , but chuck it into the popla appeal anyway , plus poor and inadequate signage , no landowner authority etc

Read the bottom of the first post in the newbies FAQ sticky thread , reading the advice by Edna Basher which you appear to have missed , regarding hire and lease vehicles , because the failure under POFA is the killer blow here , not semantics over the new CoP wording about grace periods , the law is your strongest suit as a hirer keeper

Note , there is no point reading POFA about private vehicles when it's clear that it is a hire vehicle

Fruitcake

edna basher wrote three template appeals that you will find in the NEWBIES for hire/lease vehicles, one of which is for a fleet manager, so you should be basing your PoPLA appeal on the latter.

Include all the other template appeal points from the third post of the NEWBIES and show as your draft before you submit it.

What happened when you complained to the store manager/CEO and told them nobody from your company will ever visit there again if this is not cancelled? Retail outlets are struggling at the moment and they need all the custom they can get.

Have you complained yet to your MP about this unregulated scam? Businesses are struggling at the moment and I'm sure your MP does not want this extra burden put upon companies like yours.

velvetyfrog

Thank you, everyone, really appreciate your support. I am working on my appeal - I will run it past you before I submit, thank you for the kind offer to review, Fruitcake :-)

The store manager could not care less, he said it has nothing to do with him, he said I should speak to ParkingEye.

No, have not complained to the MP yet but will do and yes, it is - to put it mildly - annoying to have to go through this at the moment!

Redx

Parking eye issue a handbook to store managers that explains cancellation procedures etc

Seems to me that he lied about something , either his company hired parking Eye or the landowner or managing agent did so he either lied about having no control or lied about who hired PE

Complain to the CEO of b and m to start with , but no blabbing about who was driving , the royal WE will suffice

Construct your hirer Popla appeal based on previous examples

D_P_Dance

FWIIW, my wife has received three PCNs from PE recently, all were cancelled by ASDA.

velvetyfrog

Thank you, Redx, I will complain to Home Bargains HQ but I did not take his name, so I don't think I will get too far. He definitely lied but perhaps his handbook told him to fob people off rather than help. It would be interesting to see if HB get a cut of the profits that PE generate on their car park.

D_P_Dance, I know - I have had PCNs in the name of the company cancelled by Halfords, Grosvenor Casino, etc, etc. But Home Bargains did not budge when everyone else did. 

velvetyfrog

Redx said:

Seems to me that he lied about something , either his company hired parking Eye or the landowner or managing agent did so he either lied about having no control or lied about who hired PE

Complain to the CEO of b and m to start with , but no blabbing about who was driving , the royal WE will suffice

Seems that he did not lie after all - it is a corporate policy set out on the Home Bargains website - in FAQ Compliments and Complaints - Q: I have received a car parking charge, can you help? - A: "Some of the car parks at Home Bargains stores are not owned by us (TJ Morris Ltd). Some of these car parks may be controlled by third party companies who can issue charges for breaching their terms, which are outlined on signage in the car park. If you have received a charge and would like to appeal this, please refer it to the company who have issued the charge". (Sorry, I cannot post links yet)

I do have a feeling that the statement from TJM suggests there is no landowner authority to begin with...
Just struggling to find the words to express it, any ideas?