Message from ABTA A disgrace.

Aylesbury_Duck

43722 said:

"the sort of person he is"... You really think that is a comment worth making on a public forum?

You're right, it was unnecessary. 

zagfles

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Ziggyplus said:

So you are happy for individual consumers to be forced to give major companies interest free loans? Retrospectively changing their legal rights?  As I have said before, the solution is for Governments to lend whatever finance is needed against the security of company equity or assets. UK Govt is already effectively lender of last resort through ATOL.  I am not sure if I am impressed by French precedents.  Germans have already lent TUI €1.5 billion.

Just four months ago there was universal condemnation of Labour's plans to throw billions into the economy. "Wasteful", "uncosted", "delusional" was the general sentiment, and their spending plans were for things like health, welfare and education.  A short while later everyone expects any sector they're employed by or a customer of to get a bailout, even such "vital" industries as er.....travel and tourism. 

Socialism sure is popular in a pandemic. 

Everyone knows it works short term, but not long term. What's happening now will last a few months, it's clearly delusional to think it's a sustainable long term strategy, and it would obviously have been much harder to put in the current support if we'd been spending like the the previous Labour leadership wanted us to spend in normal times.

So the idea that doing something like this validates Corbyn's policies is laughable. At least he's gone at last, and we might get a semi decent opposition. 

zagfles

Ziggyplus said:

So you are happy for individual consumers to be forced to give major companies interest free loans? Retrospectively changing their legal rights?  As I have said before, the solution is for Governments to lend whatever finance is needed against the security of company equity or assets. UK Govt is already effectively lender of last resort through ATOL.  I am not sure if I am impressed by French precedents.  Germans have already lent TUI €1.5 billion.

Why should the taxpayer bail out travel companies when taxpayers will consist of loads of people who don't go on holidays? Maybe they should just let travel companies go bust, then those demanding their money back can queue up with the rest of the creditors for the scraps, or try to invoke so called guarantees from the likes of ABTA and ATOL who'd probably go bust as well.

Ziggyplus

Getting back to the subject.  I have just read the very helpful update by Which was sent out this morning in their weekly newsletter.  I missed this earlier. Takes the emotion out of a very difficult subject.  To paraphrase:
The ABTA advice to their members is misleading and not in accordance with the law;
Not all travel companies are breaking the law; the ones which are tend to give their customers the run around.
Which recommends a Section 75 claim in any case where the travel company is in clear breach of the 2012 Regulations. ( Banks may wriggle but they should face the pressure)

This is an escalating shambles which only Government action can sort. Many stressed and unhappy customers.  Similarly stressed travel company staff.  Companies facing unmanageable negative cash flow.  Government blind eye.

zagfles

Ziggyplus said:

Getting back to the subject.  I have just read the very helpful update by Which was sent out this morning in their weekly newsletter.  I missed this earlier. Takes the emotion out of a very difficult subject.  To paraphrase:
The ABTA advice to their members is misleading and not in accordance with the law;
Not all travel companies are breaking the law; the ones which are tend to give their customers the run around.
Which recommends a Section 75 claim in any case where the travel company is in clear breach of the 2012 Regulations. ( Banks may wriggle but they should face the pressure)

This is an escalating shambles which only Government action can sort. Many stressed and unhappy customers.  Similarly stressed travel company staff.  Companies facing unmanageable negative cash flow.  Government blind eye.

Yeah it's a disgrace how the government are not making this their priority at the moment. People may be dying, NHS capacity is being stretched, economy is imploding, but some people aren't getting the holiday they paid for! Come on Boris, get out of your hospital bed and sort it!

anticlaus105

bradders1983 said:

anticlaus105 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Pollycat said:

anticlaus105 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

anticlaus105 said:

Ziggyplus said:

Mmmm!
i would not lump the customers and companies together. The former are not asking for a “bail out”, simply their legal rights. I cannot help adding the thought that in 2008 customers were not forced to make interest free loans to the banks. The Government stepped in with massive loans in exchange for equity.  I am tired of one way arguments by fat cat travel companies and their apologists. An open debate would be welcome, such as that which the FT is attempting this morning. The deposits that travel companies took and are trying to retain are not their money.  Should have been ring fenced - placed in escrow. Instead the funds were used as interest free financing. Sure, if travel companies had to finance themselves properly,  holidays would be more expensive. So what?

I too am sick of all the travel company appologists on here (some who no doubt have a vested intetest) trying to shame people into taking vouchers making out they are being unreasonable by asking for their own money back and comparing them to toilet roll hoarders, all while defending the travel companies who continue treat them with disregard. It's ridiculous.

"I don't like the correct advice I'm getting so the person giving it must have a vested interest".

Never gets old.

Never gets wrong either.

I really do wish that I had a penny for every accusation on online forums that I must work for a company somebody has a complaint about because I'm not jumping on the bandwagon with them.

I'd be able to bail out every company that is currently struggling.

And afford to charter my own jet for my next holiday.

Recent posts tell you all about the type of person he is.  I expected it.

I can't see what I have said that would upset you enough to result in a personal attack against me? All I have done is ask for my money back and point out how abhorrently TUI are behaving at the moment. Oh hang on...it was you said anyone wanting their money back was worse than a toilet roll hoarder. Now I get it.

Are you the person in another thread encouraging people to form angry mobs to storm TUI shops when they reopen?

I believe I said they will likely be faced with an angry mob when they finally reopen their stores, if they don't get their act together and I don't believe I made any derogatory or disparaging remarks about anyone's character.

bradders1983

anticlaus105 said:

bradders1983 said:

anticlaus105 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Pollycat said:

anticlaus105 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

anticlaus105 said:

Ziggyplus said:

Mmmm!
i would not lump the customers and companies together. The former are not asking for a “bail out”, simply their legal rights. I cannot help adding the thought that in 2008 customers were not forced to make interest free loans to the banks. The Government stepped in with massive loans in exchange for equity.  I am tired of one way arguments by fat cat travel companies and their apologists. An open debate would be welcome, such as that which the FT is attempting this morning. The deposits that travel companies took and are trying to retain are not their money.  Should have been ring fenced - placed in escrow. Instead the funds were used as interest free financing. Sure, if travel companies had to finance themselves properly,  holidays would be more expensive. So what?

I too am sick of all the travel company appologists on here (some who no doubt have a vested intetest) trying to shame people into taking vouchers making out they are being unreasonable by asking for their own money back and comparing them to toilet roll hoarders, all while defending the travel companies who continue treat them with disregard. It's ridiculous.

"I don't like the correct advice I'm getting so the person giving it must have a vested interest".

Never gets old.

Never gets wrong either.

I really do wish that I had a penny for every accusation on online forums that I must work for a company somebody has a complaint about because I'm not jumping on the bandwagon with them.

I'd be able to bail out every company that is currently struggling.

And afford to charter my own jet for my next holiday.

Recent posts tell you all about the type of person he is.  I expected it.

I can't see what I have said that would upset you enough to result in a personal attack against me? All I have done is ask for my money back and point out how abhorrently TUI are behaving at the moment. Oh hang on...it was you said anyone wanting their money back was worse than a toilet roll hoarder. Now I get it.

Are you the person in another thread encouraging people to form angry mobs to storm TUI shops when they reopen?

I believe I said they will likely be faced with an angry mob when they finally reopen their stores, if they don't get their act together and I don't believe I made any derogatory or disparaging remarks about anyone's character.

You also said you would be at the front of that mob yourself. 

anticlaus105

bradders1983 said:

anticlaus105 said:

bradders1983 said:

anticlaus105 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Pollycat said:

anticlaus105 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

anticlaus105 said:

Ziggyplus said:

Mmmm!
i would not lump the customers and companies together. The former are not asking for a “bail out”, simply their legal rights. I cannot help adding the thought that in 2008 customers were not forced to make interest free loans to the banks. The Government stepped in with massive loans in exchange for equity.  I am tired of one way arguments by fat cat travel companies and their apologists. An open debate would be welcome, such as that which the FT is attempting this morning. The deposits that travel companies took and are trying to retain are not their money.  Should have been ring fenced - placed in escrow. Instead the funds were used as interest free financing. Sure, if travel companies had to finance themselves properly,  holidays would be more expensive. So what?

I too am sick of all the travel company appologists on here (some who no doubt have a vested intetest) trying to shame people into taking vouchers making out they are being unreasonable by asking for their own money back and comparing them to toilet roll hoarders, all while defending the travel companies who continue treat them with disregard. It's ridiculous.

"I don't like the correct advice I'm getting so the person giving it must have a vested interest".

Never gets old.

Never gets wrong either.

I really do wish that I had a penny for every accusation on online forums that I must work for a company somebody has a complaint about because I'm not jumping on the bandwagon with them.

I'd be able to bail out every company that is currently struggling.

And afford to charter my own jet for my next holiday.

Recent posts tell you all about the type of person he is.  I expected it.

I can't see what I have said that would upset you enough to result in a personal attack against me? All I have done is ask for my money back and point out how abhorrently TUI are behaving at the moment. Oh hang on...it was you said anyone wanting their money back was worse than a toilet roll hoarder. Now I get it.

Are you the person in another thread encouraging people to form angry mobs to storm TUI shops when they reopen?

I believe I said they will likely be faced with an angry mob when they finally reopen their stores, if they don't get their act together and I don't believe I made any derogatory or disparaging remarks about anyone's character.

You also said you would be at the front of that mob yourself. 

This is all getting quite unnecessarily heated. I'm clearly agitated for many reasons and that is likely coming across in my posting. If I have offended anyone I apologise. On the one occasion (since original refund request) I have spoken to TUI I would like to point out I have been nothing but polite and understand it most certainly not the fault of the person at the end of the phone. I did ask some awkward questions though as is my right but was certainly not a plank or a pratt as has been inferred elsewhere.

As for the vested interest comment which others have also made and some seem to have taken personally, it’s merely my belief in the age we live anyone on the net is not always what they seem. I haven’t singled anyone out for this, but I am entitled to an opinion that for whatever reason (works for/knows someone who works for/has holiday booked and doesn’t want refundees to ruin its chances of going ahead/something else) some people posting may have another agenda. Just like some or the 10 star reviews on imdb for dismal films or the car lease companies that pretend to be customer on lease forums, it’s not always what it seems. Please don’t take my comment personally. It’s just an observation that could no doubt be wrong.

I did say I may join an angry mob outside a TUI store (on reflection I haven’t got appropriate PPE) and if that’s the worst thing I ever say in a forum then I will one day be considered a saint of the internet.

Once again, I apologise for any offence. I clearly have too much time on my hands (if you check my posting history this will become obvious). I’m now going to disappear and deal with my TUI issue quietly. If do procure a refund or some other resolution I will be sure to post back. Good luck to everyone whatever issues you may be facing.

Aylesbury_Duck

zagfles said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Ziggyplus said:

So you are happy for individual consumers to be forced to give major companies interest free loans? Retrospectively changing their legal rights?  As I have said before, the solution is for Governments to lend whatever finance is needed against the security of company equity or assets. UK Govt is already effectively lender of last resort through ATOL.  I am not sure if I am impressed by French precedents.  Germans have already lent TUI €1.5 billion.

Just four months ago there was universal condemnation of Labour's plans to throw billions into the economy. "Wasteful", "uncosted", "delusional" was the general sentiment, and their spending plans were for things like health, welfare and education.  A short while later everyone expects any sector they're employed by or a customer of to get a bailout, even such "vital" industries as er.....travel and tourism. 

Socialism sure is popular in a pandemic. 

Everyone knows it works short term, but not long term. What's happening now will last a few months, it's clearly delusional to think it's a sustainable long term strategy, and it would obviously have been much harder to put in the current support if we'd been spending like the the previous Labour leadership wanted us to spend in normal times.

So the idea that doing something like this validates Corbyn's policies is laughable. At least he's gone at last, and we might get a semi decent opposition. 

That's something we can agree on. I have reasonable hope that Starmer will prove to be a decent leader. Even if it takes many years to realistically challenge the Tories, he should be good at holding them to account.  They're a pretty ropey bunch at the best of times  and their response to this crisis hasn't been impressive. 

bagand96

I think this forum has just turned into a hamsterwheel the last week or so.  Round and round and round.  Most new posts could be answered by some sort of web bot that picks out the key words and posts a pre-worded response.

It's like this:

- Customers wanting refunds have the law on their side
- Customers expecting refunds within the regulated 14 days (or in fact any short term timescale) are not living in the real world right now (even considering how bonkers the real world is)
- Some travel companies simply don't have the cash right now.  Incredibly unlikely they could borrow it.
- Even those that do have "the cash in the bank" can't just give it all to customers, they have to consider their cashflow and liquidity for the next few months to try and actually have a business left at the end of all of this
- It will need government intervention in all likelihood.  That, for obvious reasons, will not be quick.  Those pinning their hopes on government intervention might want to see decisions some other governments have taken on the matter before getting too excited.