Advice needed on pay entitlement - can employer just stop pay in current circumstances

Jeremy535897

I assume you will have read the attached:
https://www.gov.uk/lay-offs-short-timeworking

The problem with a lack of any written contract is that there is only evidence as to what has happened in the past to go by. For example, if your husband got paid for a regular number of hours each week over many years, that indicates a very different situation from one where he waited at home to be called in on an ad hoc basis (like a zero hours contract). It is also not particularly helpful if it is your husband's word against the employer, with nobody else there, although the prime source of evidence will be his payslips and what went into the bank account.

tripled

If your husband is on furlough, then his employer shouldn't be in the position where he "cannot afford to pay anything" as the employer should be claiming it back from the government, albeit there is a few days delay. If the employer is still claiming furlough for your husband but only paying half or nothing, they would be trousering your husband's furlough pay to keep themselves afloat.

If the employer wishes to make your husband redundant, he would be entitled to pay for the statutory notice period (1 week per year if 10 years service), along with any unpaid wages and holiday pay (he would have continued accumulating holiday while on furlough). However, it sounds like the employer doesn't have the money to pay this.

If the coach company goes bust, your husband will be able to claim unpaid wages, holiday and redundancy from the government, subject to a cap. See more at https://www.gov.uk/your-rights-if-your-employer-is-insolvent.

There is no entitlement to furlough, it is at the employers discretion. They employer can recall your husband from furlough, there is no right to refuse.

The employer does need to comply with health and safety legislation, and so should have carried out a risk assessment and made any adjustments needed. Your husband could make a complaint to HSE if this has not happened. If your husband refuses to work and the employer refuses to pay or dismisses your husband, he would have to take his employer to a tribunal, which which would be somewhat stressful, time-consuming and uncertain.

The employer sounds like a small business battling to stay a float, if it was me I would try and show some flexibility (perhaps  accepting being paid a week late to allow the employer time to make the reclaim from CRJS). However, if the coach your husband drives is being sold, it doesn't sound like he'll have a job for much longer anyway.

Molly56

Jeremy535897 said:

I assume you will have read the attached:
https://www.gov.uk/lay-offs-short-timeworking

The problem with a lack of any written contract is that there is only evidence as to what has happened in the past to go by. For example, if your husband got paid for a regular number of hours each week over many years, that indicates a very different situation from one where he waited at home to be called in on an ad hoc basis (like a zero hours contract). It is also not particularly helpful if it is your husband's word against the employer, with nobody else there, although the prime source of evidence will be his payslips and what went into the bank account.

My husband has worked for 15 years and has got the same flat rate per week each week regardless of whether he has been called in to work or as is the case over winter months work has been scarce, he was paid overtime for anything over 36 hours actual work. 

His employer does not give him a payslip (don’t ask!) but regular payments can be identified by payments into the bank account. 

Had read the link you suggested and reached the conclusion that given past history of payments as outlined above that this may not be applicable, please correct me if I am wrong. 

Thank you for your help 

Jeremy535897

If he had been laid off for 4 weeks without pay, he might have applied for redundancy. The problem is that the employer knows that redundancy will be expensive, so no doubt will try to wriggle out of it. It may come down to him trying to engineer a dismissal and your husband having to go to a tribunal.

macman

Clearly not a zero hours contract, and so they can't just reduce his pay to half or zero without being in breach of contract. If they do that, he is effectively being made redundant. Once furlough comes to an end, redundancy is probably the best option, as he'll get 15 weeks pay.
It concerns me greatly that he's never had a payslip: what about income tax, NI, P60?

Alter_ego

No payslips!  Does he pay tax on PAYE?

GDB2222

I’m the same age as your husband, also have type 2 diabetes although very carefully controlled, and I would not drive a coach at the moment. I think that’s the case if there were a couple of Perspex screens erected, but certainly without. 

So, to be fair to the employer, your husband should tell him the news ASAP, and he can either pass up the work or find a new driver.

what happens next? I imagine the employer will take the opportunity to dismiss your husband without having to pay him off. Your husband will then need to go to an employment tribunal to argue it out, which will be pretty stressful for both your husband and the owner. If possible, they should try to negotiate some compromise that takes into account the owner's ability to pay. It will probably come as a surprise to him that your husband has a right to redundancy pay at all. 

I think your husband is going to have to come to terms with the fact that he is now permanently retired. There are few jobs around for people our age at the best of times. 

Molly56

Regarding the payslip just to confirm that his wages are all properly subject to PAYE / tax Ni and he receives an end of year P60 so all above board with HMRC.....he just doesn’t get the physical piece of paper.....I did question the legality of this when I found out about it (we have been together for 5 years) but this is just how it has been with his employer. I have checked my husbands online account with Gov.uk and as far as I can see all is above board in all other respects. With an accountancy background I have some knowledge but no practical PAYE or payroll experience. 

GDB2222

It’s remiss of the employer, not providing payslips, but I cannot see any real loss. 

If there is a dispute about redundancy payment, there’s a temptation to bring every minor grievance into it. Just stick to what’s essential. It’ll be quite complicated enough without bringing in things that have no significant financial value.

gary83

if the employer hadn’t been paying the driver through the books and paying taxes he wouldn’t have been eligible for furlough, with money being tight at the business but furlough pay every payday I think it’s safe to assume everything is above board. The only time the OP might have needed a payslip would be for something like a mortgage application, if the money comes in every week/month most people wouldn’t lose sleep over the lack of a paper trail