I have bought a cloned car

Viorel

Hello to all members , Ive seen a lot of topics in regards to cloned vehicle on here and Im a victim as well as other member that have posted , the reason im posting this is to gather as much information from people that have already faced this problem before and help me to point me in the right direction , other people that have not faced this problem are more than welcome to comment or present their opinions any information is high valuable in my case !

So here is my story :

Ive bought Ford Edge 17 plate back in September this year from a guy that pretended to be a dealer selling cars bought from auction as salvage and written off

The car was listed on gumtree for £5500 cat S structural damage which was damaged to the whole ns ( driver side ) both door rear quarter rear bumper half of it and rear middle light

Purchased the vehicle for £5000 in cash which after negotiation which was a fair price knowing that I have to spend another £4000 parts and labour , a straight car same as this proabably going for around £14k 15k max but being damaged and categorised as a cat s I thought that will be still a fair price as I was thinking to keep the car , just before I paid for the vehicle I have hpied it with a gold service and surprise car was hpi clear no recorded damaged , I have told the seller that and he said that it will appear soon as probably the claim is been paid out but not updated ( who knew that as I didnt )

Bought the vehicle with 2 keys manuals locking wheel nut still sealed etc , but no logbook , got the car home and next day Ive applied for a logbook with v62 form , meanwhile car was in garage getting repaired and after sort of 3 weeks I got the logbook at my address in my name , no problems so far , bear in mind car did not have any insurance or road tax ( showing not taxed )

Car was finally repaired in the 4th week of the purchase so a week after the logbook arrived , Now the trouble starts to begin :

Dvla have sent me a letter stating that someone is trying to apply for another logbook for the same car so I quickly contacted them and advised them that the car Is still in my possesion and I havent sold it , the agent have believed me as the registered owner and deleted the application from the other person and told me not to worry as they also will open a case which its still going on at the moment and they havent updated me in any ways , after 2 weeks of driving the car it developed a engine problem and didn't want to repair it so I decided to sell it spare or repair and listed it on ebay for few weeks and no interest whatsoever until someone has contacted me via ebay saying that they got a same car as mine with same reg number and same miles , this has flagged up in my mind that my car could be cloned either mine or the guys car that contacted me , I have contacted dvla same day and told them what happend also asked the agent to check if there is 2 persons registered on the same number plate and if there is 2 different addresses registered on the vehicle , agent told me straight away that they don't have a record of that and he cannot check my request which felt a bit ignorant and really hard to believe , he told me that Im the registered of the vehicle and full stop.

I was still using the car with the fault and wanted it to book it in at local dealer to be fixed turned out to be an injector fault , it was taxed and insured ( green on the askmid ) bear that in mind !!

Took the insurance off as the appointment was after new year and they advised me not to drive the car so parked it up on my drive but still taxed !

One night while I was thinking where the problem is Ive decided to hpi the car again , also hpied it when i bought it and again everything was good even pass on damage or previous accidents , but surprise again car showed SORNED OUT even though Im still paying tax by direct debit, again in my mind flagged up something its not right and I was thinking again about it that could be cloned , I checked insurance it was still uninsured ( red on askmid) contacted Dvla and HEY another big surprise after giving them my details to pass security checks they said I'm not the registered keeper and never been and there is someone else on their record ( she got me really mad and upset and level of the stress has gone up in the sky ) explained her very calm that is not possible and told her to double check she put me on hold for like 35 minutes to tell me that she cannot discuss any further information with me but the police will get in touch with me in the next 6 weeks to come and inspect the car.

Few days later I have checked up the car again and massive surprise car shows taxed and insured ( green on askmid )

I have been reading about cloned cars for the past 2 days and a lot of people are saying to check the vin numbers and locations which I have and YES it turns out that my car has been cloned , under the seat there is a vin number sticker with same number from the windscreen and side door that I took off and under it there is another vin number which is different engraved onto the chasis of the car , and windscreen vin number has been put on somehow because inside of the vehicle at the bottom of the windscreen there is a piece of spongy strip cut out for the scammers to insert the new vin number over the actual vin from the stolen vehicle that I have ( Ive just found out today )

I don't know what to do next , Dvla wont tell me anything apart from police being in touch with me , been to the police few days ago and they said nothing has flagged up with them and wait over the new year ( I havent told them about the car being the cloned one as I didnt know until today im thinking to go tommorow again )

Im losing out around £10.000 and im thinking to take DVLA to court as they issued me a logbook and should have known that this car with this reg belongs to another persons , also for not letting me know whats going on . And in regards to the scum bag that sold me the car I took a picture of his licence God knows if that was a genuine one and got a picture of him too. Now he is not responding on the phone anymore


PLEASE GUYS ANY HELP WILL BE MUCH APPRECIATED , I CAN BE CONTACTED ON MY EMAIL [email address removed by Forum Team][/email]

Mercdriver

I would edit your post to remove your email address if I were you.

Also I'd say that £5k for a 17 plate even as a Cat s needing 4-5k spending on it is a bit too cheap and should really have sounded a few alarm bells. There aren't that many for sale. Lowest Price I can see asking price for on Autotrader is 18.5k for 17 plate Edge.

You will need to see what the police have to say.

mrbobby321

Hmmm
Seems a sticky situation. There isn’t much you can do at this stage aside from contact the police. There is ways of sorting the issue but it is a lengthy process.

Tips for future (for all readers) I sell salvage vehicles myself so can advise honestly;

1) Never purchase a salvage vehicle from a private individual if you don’t know about cars

2) Always HPI and match up vin numbers

3) Cat S (30-35% less original value)
CAT N (20-25% less original value)

4) ask for pictures prior to repair if possible

5) Cat S does not necessarily mean the car was a complete loss - a simple inner wing under the bonnet may have a slight kink and the insurers have classed this as structural when in reality it is a very simple and safe repair

6) Cat N doesn’t necessarily mean light damage I have seen cars completely wrote off but classed as Cat N

7) many of the cars out there have been involved in an accident. However they are ‘unrecorded’. Even the dealers sell these as they come in part exchange. Sometimes very difficult to notice.

To summarise - take advice of someone in the motor trade when purchasing a vehicle.
As long as the person/dealer is honest and you’ve got your wits about you, you’ll be fine.

In regards to the above case, don’t worry it’s all sortable, just a headache in the interim.

Hope this helps!

AdrianC

Viorel wrote: »

Hello to all members , Ive seen a lot of topics in regards to cloned vehicle on here and Im a victim as well as other member that have posted , the reason im posting this is to gather as much information from people that have already faced this problem before and help me to point me in the right direction , other people that have not faced this problem are more than welcome to comment or present their opinions any information is high valuable in my case !

So here is my story :

Ive bought Ford Edge 17 plate back in September this year from a guy that pretended to be a dealer selling cars bought from auction as salvage and written off

The car was listed on gumtree for £5500 cat S structural damage which was damaged to the whole ns ( driver side ) both door rear quarter rear bumper half of it and rear middle light

Purchased the vehicle for £5000 in cash which after negotiation which was a fair price knowing that I have to spend another £4000 parts and labour , a straight car same as this proabably going for around £14k 15k max but being damaged and categorised as a cat s I thought that will be still a fair price as I was thinking to keep the car , just before I paid for the vehicle I have hpied it with a gold service and surprise car was hpi clear no recorded damaged , I have told the seller that and he said that it will appear soon as probably the claim is been paid out but not updated ( who knew that as I didnt )

Bought the vehicle with 2 keys manuals locking wheel nut still sealed etc , but no logbook , got the car home and next day Ive applied for a logbook with v62 form , meanwhile car was in garage getting repaired and after sort of 3 weeks I got the logbook at my address in my name , no problems so far , bear in mind car did not have any insurance or road tax ( showing not taxed )

Car was finally repaired in the 4th week of the purchase so a week after the logbook arrived , Now the trouble starts to begin :

Dvla have sent me a letter stating that someone is trying to apply for another logbook for the same car so I quickly contacted them and advised them that the car Is still in my possesion and I havent sold it , the agent have believed me as the registered owner and deleted the application from the other person and told me not to worry as they also will open a case which its still going on at the moment and they havent updated me in any ways , after 2 weeks of driving the car it developed a engine problem and didn't want to repair it so I decided to sell it spare or repair and listed it on ebay for few weeks and no interest whatsoever until someone has contacted me via ebay saying that they got a same car as mine with same reg number and same miles , this has flagged up in my mind that my car could be cloned either mine or the guys car that contacted me , I have contacted dvla same day and told them what happend also asked the agent to check if there is 2 persons registered on the same number plate and if there is 2 different addresses registered on the vehicle , agent told me straight away that they don't have a record of that and he cannot check my request which felt a bit ignorant and really hard to believe , he told me that Im the registered of the vehicle and full stop.

I was still using the car with the fault and wanted it to book it in at local dealer to be fixed turned out to be an injector fault , it was taxed and insured ( green on the askmid ) bear that in mind !!

Took the insurance off as the appointment was after new year and they advised me not to drive the car so parked it up on my drive but still taxed !

One night while I was thinking where the problem is Ive decided to hpi the car again , also hpied it when i bought it and again everything was good even pass on damage or previous accidents , but surprise again car showed SORNED OUT even though Im still paying tax by direct debit, again in my mind flagged up something its not right and I was thinking again about it that could be cloned , I checked insurance it was still uninsured ( red on askmid) contacted Dvla and HEY another big surprise after giving them my details to pass security checks they said I'm not the registered keeper and never been and there is someone else on their record ( she got me really mad and upset and level of the stress has gone up in the sky ) explained her very calm that is not possible and told her to double check she put me on hold for like 35 minutes to tell me that she cannot discuss any further information with me but the police will get in touch with me in the next 6 weeks to come and inspect the car.

Few days later I have checked up the car again and massive surprise car shows taxed and insured ( green on askmid )

I have been reading about cloned cars for the past 2 days and a lot of people are saying to check the vin numbers and locations which I have and YES it turns out that my car has been cloned , under the seat there is a vin number sticker with same number from the windscreen and side door that I took off and under it there is another vin number which is different engraved onto the chasis of the car , and windscreen vin number has been put on somehow because inside of the vehicle at the bottom of the windscreen there is a piece of spongy strip cut out for the scammers to insert the new vin number over the actual vin from the stolen vehicle that I have ( Ive just found out today )

I don't know what to do next , Dvla wont tell me anything apart from police being in touch with me , been to the police few days ago and they said nothing has flagged up with them and wait over the new year ( I havent told them about the car being the cloned one as I didnt know until today im thinking to go tommorow again )

Im losing out around £10.000 and im thinking to take DVLA to court as they issued me a logbook and should have known that this car with this reg belongs to another persons , also for not letting me know whats going on . And in regards to the scum bag that sold me the car I took a picture of his licence God knows if that was a genuine one and got a picture of him too. Now he is not responding on the phone anymore

Let me precis that...

You spent £5k on an unrepaired CatS Ford Edge via Gumtree. Repaired, even with the history, it'd be a ~£15k car. Straight, nearer £20k. You didn't get any V5C.

That didn't even ring enough alarm bells for you to do the most basic identity checks. You didn't even check the VIN plates looked unaltered.

You then immediately doubled your investment in the car by repairing it.

You sent a V62 in as a new keeper - and received a V5C in your name. The process for that involves DVLA contacting the previous recorded keeper and asking "Does this sound legit to you?", in the same way they then did with you when the other applicant sent a V62 in.

The big question... How on earth were DVLA meant to know that the car you have was a clone, and somebody else had the real one? You're taking them to court for the money you spent before even having any dealings with them, and holding them liable for your failure in basic due diligence.

Viorel

Car costed me £10k which I knew that will cost me with all repairs , saw 2 ford edges at that time with same miles unrecorded going for about £14.5 -15k so it didnt ring any bells to me as I thought car is recorded and should lose around 40 50 % of its value plus the damage of the car was really bad and being a structural damage , car looked really genuine and looked like its coming from a auction site ( last 3 letters of the reg no was covered with black tape and there was yellow marker writings on the windscreen with lot number , location number etc as in it was bought from an auction !


And Dvla should have not issue me with a logbook , they should have known that there is another car somewhere with same details , becuase like i said in the post somebody else is the legal keeper now with a same car as mine , why didnt they know from begining ??

Guys thank you very much for all your opinions and advice God bless you all !

AdrianC

Viorel wrote: »

Car costed me £10k

Half on the purchase, half on post-purchase work.

car looked really genuine and looked like its coming from a auction site ( last 3 letters of the reg no was covered with black tape and there was yellow marker writings on the windscreen with lot number , location number etc as in it was bought from an auction !

Not exactly brain-surgery to mimic.

Why not buy straight from Copart? You'd save the middle-man's markup, as well as getting better reassurance.

And Dvla should have not issue me with a logbook , they should have known that there is another car somewhere with same details

How could they know that?

All they knew when you applied for your V5C is when the last V5C was issued, when it had been flagged as CatS, and (probably) that the car had been flagged as going into trade.

becuase like i said in the post somebody else is the legal keeper now with a same car as mine

Except for the minor detail that the other person applied for a V5C after you did.

why didnt they know from begining ??

How would/could they?

TooManyPoints

...Im losing out around £10.000 and im thinking to take DVLA to court as they issued me a logbook and should have known that this car with this reg belongs to another persons...

Good luck with that. Let's imagine their reaction:

"So, sir, you saw this car for sale at well under the going rate, checked on HPI to find that their description of it did not match reality, ignored that and nonetheless decided to buy it. You paid cash for it, drove it away and the next day applied to us for a new V5C. We had no idea that the car you had seen was not the car for which you had applied for a new V5C so we issued one to you. You paid £4k to have it repaired but a few weeks later it broke down and you discovered that anyway it was a wrong 'un. You are £10k out of pocket and would like us to reimburse you. Certainly sir. The cheque (signed by the UK Taxpayer) is in the post."

What would have happened if, soon after you'd applied for a new V5C, the DVLA did come back to you and explain that what you'd bought was not what you thought you'd bought? Who would you have blamed then? There is a well known phrase: "caveat emptor" which means "let the buyer beware". Unfortunately you didn't beware.

Viorel

Ok fair enough , but when I rang them in the first place and asked them if there is another person registered to that reg and car they have said that im the only one thas owns a car like that and its registered to my name and address , I dont understand why they have said that in the first place , and after few weeks to find out they told me a lie as somebody else owns same car as mine etc etc , im really desperate as im trying to get some advice from a person that faced a similar problem as mine , if they would have warned me in the first place i wouldnt spend any more money on it and give it back to whoever the car belongs to , any ways thanks again for your responses guys , could someone told me if they got their car back from the insurance as ive seen a post like that but the person never updated on forum , I mean if the car I have has been stolen and given a new identity insurance should have payed out the claimant , you think is any chance that I could buy it from them so im not going to lose all my money

AdrianC

Viorel wrote: »

Ok fair enough , but when I rang them in the first place and asked them if there is another person registered to that reg and car they have said that im the only one thas owns a car like that and its registered to my name and address , I dont understand why they have said that in the first place , and after few weeks to find out they told me a lie as somebody else owns same car as mine etc etc

You need to understand what DVLA's job is.

All they know is what's registered - the keeper is the person responsible for the legals of that car. That's not the same as "owned". It says as much in big letters on the V5C. Nobody knows who OWNS a particular car. If OWNERSHIP was tracked, there would be lawyers involved in changing ownership, to make sure it was all continuous and demonstrable. That happens in other countries, not all, and not here.

Registration is just a matter of a chain. Manufacturer -> Owner -> Owner -> Owner -> Scrap.

The chain got broken slightly because you didn't get any paperwork at all. So you applied for a new V5C with a V62.
What does that V62 ask about the car? The registration and VIN. That's all. You copied them off the car...
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/849283/v62-application-for-a-registration-certificate.pdf
The reg and VIN matched, so DVLA contacted the last known keeper, and said "Have you still got it?" - they said "No, passed it on.". Well, that must be to you. You got your V5C.

Somebody else did the same. DVLA did the same. Except this time, the last known keeper said "Hold on...!" - that was you. So investigation started... and it was found that you'd looked at a hooky, faked VIN on the car you had.

How is this DVLA's fault?

Shaun_of_the_Dead

Viorel wrote: »

Ok fair enough , but when I rang them in the first place and asked them if there is another person registered to that reg and car they have said that im the only one thas owns a car like that and its registered to my name and address , I dont understand why they have said that in the first place , and after few weeks to find out they told me a lie as somebody else owns same car as mine etc etc , im really desperate as im trying to get some advice from a person that faced a similar problem as mine , if they would have warned me in the first place i wouldnt spend any more money on it and give it back to whoever the car belongs to , any ways thanks again for your responses guys , could someone told me if they got their car back from the insurance as ive seen a post like that but the person never updated on forum , I mean if the car I have has been stolen and given a new identity insurance should have payed out the claimant , you think is any chance that I could buy it from them so im not going to lose all my money

Car A was for sale with a dealer and shown as in trade/ no current keeper with the DVLA.

Thief nicks Car B and gives it the identity of Car A and you buy it. DVLA then send you a V5.

Car A then sells and the new keeper applies for a V5, now two people appear to own the same car.

That's one way.

Mercdriver

Viorel wrote: »

Ok fair enough , but when I rang them in the first place and asked them if there is another person registered to that reg and car they have said that im the only one thas owns a car like that and its registered to my name and address , I dont understand why they have said that in the first place , and after few weeks to find out they told me a lie as somebody else owns same car as mine etc etc , im really desperate as im trying to get some advice from a person that faced a similar problem as mine , if they would have warned me in the first place i wouldnt spend any more money on it and give it back to whoever the car belongs to , any ways thanks again for your responses guys , could someone told me if they got their car back from the insurance as ive seen a post like that but the person never updated on forum , I mean if the car I have has been stolen and given a new identity insurance should have payed out the claimant , you think is any chance that I could buy it from them so im not going to lose all my money

The DVLA didn't lie to you. They gave you the information they had.