BEV emmissions

GreatApe

We need to move electricity generation to 100% renewables, and also move to all-electric homes and transport

We don't need to, it's just a mild desire and only if it doesn't harm us economically too much

Considerations of what advantages might or might not exist in the interim are not particularly relevant.

This is ridiculous. BEVs have too many vested interests mostly those who own shares in a particular company....

Let's take heating since you mentioned that
Is electrify at all cost a good idea
What if a house goes from a gas boiler to resistance heaters?
Is that a good move after all your thesis is electrify everything now
Well no it's a terrible idea you go from 90% efficient gas fired boiler
To 45% efficient gas power station to electricity in your socket
You've doubles emmissions

We just need to get there as soon as possible

No we don't
Don't confuse your own desires and wants with societies needs

Most nations are moving away from coal, are using less polluting and more efficient gas in the interim, and are building renewable energy plants at a steady rate.

Coal is still #1 global fuel for electricity
The biggest electricity consumer and the biggest car market , aka China is almost all marginal coal generation

Even if it wasn’t an entirely fallacious argument that all the pollution is moved from the tailpipe to the smoke stack, the solution would be to stop generating electricity from dirty coal (and no, there is no such thing as “clean” coal) for transportation

.

But we live in reality not fantasy so need to work with what we got and what is likely

And the reality is that in most the big car markets of the world an efficient ICE (hybrids) is lower emmissions over the lifetime of a car

All ICE vehicles need to be taken off the road and replaced by electric as soon as possible.

No they don't
The mild desire is for a steady fall in emmissions and only if this can be done economically

The mild desire can be met in incremental steps
ICE to Mild Hybrids to Full hybrids to plug in vehicle and finally if economic full EVs
Or even by design changes like getting rid of wing mirrors or making cars more aerodynamic

The EU target for 2021 is 95g/km this can be met with mild hybrids

Even non hybrid like the Ford Focus 1.0 ecoboost £18,000 is 97g/km so just 2 grams above the 2021 target. They can pay the €95/gram fine = €190 or put in mild hybrid technology (which supposedly cuts emmissions 5-10%)

So don't confuse your fundamentalist views of zero carbon now
The reality is a mild desire to reduce emmissions slowly over 30 years
This can be achieved without having to jump straight to EVs

All fossil-fuelled power stations need to be replaced by a new generation from renewable energy very soon.

If by very soon you mean over the next 30-50 years you are correct
If you mean over the next 3-5 years your are dreaming

This is why the EV or efficient ICE debate matters

If you do a fair accounting an EV of ant brand is worse than an efficient ICE in a place like China or any local grid which is marginal coal. And marginal gas grids it's better to use the funds for technology that actually reduces emmissions significantly rather than a tiny bit

£3500 subsidy so rich folk can buy £40-100k BEVs
Why not just gift a social tenant a free PV panel lot instead?
It will last 2-3x longer than the car and save 5x the emmissions
And put savings in the pocket of a council tenant rather than someone who is in the top 1-5% of society

pile-o-stone

GreatApe wrote: »

Was asked in another thread so here you go full info with more data and less assumptions with the BEVs charged by CCGTs

Model 3 = 95g/KM*
E Golf = 107g/KM (a less efficient BEV which uses more electricity)
Hybrid Corrolla or Prius = 106g/km (real world users reporting 63mpg = 106g/km)

So even an efficient BEV only saves about 10g/km over a hybrid
And this is in a gas marginal grid. In a coal marginal grid the BEV is far worse Vs the hybrid

Calculations below willing to amend if you feel the assumptions or calculations are wrong

I'm new to this thread and also to electric vehicles, for the most part. I had no idea that electric vehicles had to be charged by electricity generated only by Combined Cycle Gas Turbines!

This is a disgrace! Why haven't those fat cats in City Hall told us this fact??!!! :mad:

How does this even work? UK electricity generation is a mix of different technologies, 30% of which comes from renewables. I'm assuming that the BEV chargers must have some sort of device that filters out electricity generated from non CCGT sources?

As more offshore windfarms and other renewables come online, will this put a increasing strain on the CCGT filters?

Even worse, if my solar panels generating a surplus of power, i.e. exporting to the grid, does this mean my electric vehicle would stop charging because there is zero CCGT generation getting to the charger?

I'm glad I stumbled across this thread and its incredibly useful information!

pile-o-stone

GreatApe wrote: »

I also like the silly idea that 'my BEV is solar powered' it's as accurate as those who claim their electricity is nuclear powered because there is a nuke ten miles away.

The distance of the power station doesn't matter if it's on your roof or ten miles away or a hundred miles away electromagnetism moves at the speed of light. A BEV is marginal load and is charged by marginal supply on that grid irrespective of a nuke or PV panels being closer than the marginal CCGT

So on a sunny day where I'm exporting electricity to the grid from my solar panels, my household appliances are actually running off marginal CCGT?

What con! Again, why are we, the public, not told these important things? I bought solar panels to try and reduce my electricity bills by using self-generated energy and now I find that this isn't true!!

Saying that, my electricity bill has reduced, so perhaps 'the establishment' are fixing my bills so that I don't realise the truth that even though my smart meter says I'm exporting electricity, I'm actually really importing CCGT electricity from the grid. Ohh, they're so sneaky!!

What next? My rainwater butt is really full of mains tap water, put there at night by undercover waterboard officials!

almillar

There needs to be a way to charge the cars evenly over night rather than them all pulling max power at the same time. But I don't think smart internet chargers are a good idea they introduce a way to crash the grid if someone hacks the chargers which will eventually happen

Perhaps simply limiting charger speeds to 1KW would be a solution

BMW i3 for one can limit charging speed. If I wanted to, I could use my 3-pin charger (2kW) instead of my 7kW charger. 'Problem' solved. I'm in NI so I don't get the wonderful range of tariffs that GB does, but EV drivers are already incentivised to charge 'overnight' with various definitions of what that is. There isn't a problem, yet, and as the numbers grow, so will the grid adapt to it.

Anyway, people that are actually paid to run the grid seem to be on it so I'll not worry about it. How many 'Coronation Street ad break kettles' does it need to be, to be a problem?! Millions of 2kW kettles switching on, on top of early evening demands.

silverwhistle

Now, now pile-o-stone, you know what they say about sarcasm..:D


A more apposite saying in these circumstances would be "using a sledgehammer to crack a nut".

GreatApe

pile-o-stone wrote: »

So on a sunny day where I'm exporting electricity to the grid from my solar panels, my household appliances are actually running off marginal CCGT?

Marginal load adds to marginal demand

]What con! Again, why are we, the public, not told these important things?

Because they don't care and half the public have 100IQ or lower

I bought solar panels to try and reduce my electricity bills by using self-generated energy and now I find that this isn't true!!

That's not what I said

Saying that, my electricity bill has reduced, so perhaps 'the establishment' are fixing my bills so that I don't realise the truth that even though my smart meter says I'm exporting electricity, I'm actually really importing CCGT electricity from the grid. Ohh, they're so sneaky!!

You don't even know what electricity is
The proximity to the power source isn't relevent since electric fields travel at close to the speed of light

What next? My rainwater butt is really full of mains tap water, put there at night by undercover waterboard officials!

No it's the local unicorns that use it as a uranial and fill it up for you

GreatApe

pile-o-stone wrote: »

I'm new to this thread and also to electric vehicles, for the most part. I had no idea that electric vehicles had to be charged by electricity generated only by Combined Cycle Gas Turbines!

That's not what I said

This is a disgrace! Why haven't those fat cats in City Hall told us this fact??!!! :mad:

Probably because they only know about as much as you

How does this even work? UK electricity generation is a mix of different technologies, 30% of which comes from renewables. I'm assuming that the BEV chargers must have some sort of device that filters out electricity generated from non CCGT sources?

If I add a new power source, say a nuke or a wind farm, is this new source of energy displacing the average UK mix of electricity or CCGT generation?

If I add a new load source, say an EV or kettle, is this new source of demand firing up average UK mix or CCGT generation?

GreatApe

How does electricity work

Let's imagine a grid with just gas fired power stations nothing else

When you turn on your kettle how does the grid know to add more gas and generate more electricity? The frequency of the grid falls instantly by a small amount and the generators react to this instantly via the laws of physics and a few seconds later a CCGT adds more gas and generates 3KW more electricity...makes sense

Now imagine a more complex grid with wind farms solar panels CCGTs Coal Plants and Nukes

When you plug a Tesla into a supercharger and draw 250KW of power what happens?
The frequency of the grid falls instantly and the grid has a few options to respond

Add 250KW more wind to a wind turbine
Add 250KW more sunshine to a solar panel
Add 250KW more uranium fission
Add 250KW more coal to a coal plant
Add 250KW more gas to a gas plant

So which one do we do?
We don't control the sun or the wind so that's out
We run our nukes at max where possible so can't add more output of nuclear
We in the UK will soon close the coal plants
So What option are you left with? The CCGTs

Plug in the Tesla and draw 250KW of power and a gas plant has to produce 250KW more electricity to feed into the grid

Marginal load...is met by marginal production

almillar

I'm new to this thread and also to electric vehicles, for the most part. I had no idea that electric vehicles had to be charged by electricity generated only by Combined Cycle Gas Turbines!

That's not what I said

You were damn close.

GreatApe

almillar wrote: »

You were damn close.

No

I said marginal demand is met by marginal loads
Which in the UK happens to be CCGT the vast majority of the time

It would be, most of the time, nuclear in France, hydropower in Norway, coal in China
All three of which I highlighted multiple times
But of course where the confirmation bias is strong you only see the bits you want to see