Varley Park University of Brighton - County Court Claim

Redx

basher52 wrote: »

Just to clarify in my tiny head, I sent my SAR to OPS. They sent over 4 PDF sets of

1 - the original PCN

2 - NTK dated a month later.

OPS have not sent the letters that provides the opportunity to pay at the discounted price. ZZPs have only acknowledged my request, claiming they have a month to respond. Ultimately, this means that I will know if they sent the earlier offer discount letter after I have submitted my defence. Can I use that (if they have failed in this respect) in my witness statement for the actual court hearing? Phew!

you talk about the original PCN , which isnt clarified

was the original PCN

a) affixed to the vehicle on the date of the incident ?

or

b) posted to your home address and how many days after the incident was it dated and how many days after the incident did it arrive ? (if at all ?)

it is unlikely that any of the pcn, s said NOTICE TO KEEPER

so when we say NTK , its the first postal notice that arrives by royal mail which is the first inkling by the keeper of anything untoward

that is deemed to be the NTK , its the first Notice by post to The Keeper, which either contains the POFA warning , OR NOT. this same initial postal notice should state the full amount £80) and the 40% discount for early payment within 14 days (£48)

every one of these 4 pcn,s should have followed that same path, unless no notice to driver was issued on the day (no windscreen ticket)

so there are 2 scenarios , windscreen ticket to driver followed by postal notices to the keeper, the first one detailing the 40% discounted charge if paid quickly, any subsequent letters are reminders that the full charge is due, once the discount period to the keeper has expired

all of the above is basic parking charge notice information to keepers and its been so for almost a decade (albeit you had no knowledge, it was there to be found)

if you received all paperwork regarding these 4 invoices , then you would know which if any was the POSTAL letter we know and call the NTK

I appreciate that OPS may have used ZZPS to send notices, but its either an OPS notice as they are the principal and the claimant (not ZZPS) , or both need to be sent a SAR to flush out any missing documents

this would have been far easier to sort out if you had come here first when the first pcn arrived in the post, because we would be having the same discussions and the BPA would have helped if steps were missed or not taken by OPS, in accordance with the BPA CoP

basher52

Redx wrote: »

you talk about the original PCN , which isnt clarified

was the original PCN

a) affixed to the vehicle on the date of the incident ?

or

b) posted to your home address and how many days after the incident was it dated and how many days after the incident did it arrive ? (if at all ?)

it is unlikely that any of the pcn, s said NOTICE TO KEEPER

so when we say NTK , its the first postal notice that arrives by royal mail which is the first inkling by the keeper of anything untoward

that is deemed to be the NTK , its the first Notice by post to The Keeper, which either contains the POFA warning , OR NOT. this same initial postal notice should state the full amount £80) and the 40% discount for early payment within 14 days (£48)

every one of these 4 pcn,s should have followed that same path, unless no notice to driver was issued on the day (no windscreen ticket)

so there are 2 scenarios , windscreen ticket to driver followed by postal notices to the keeper, the first one detailing the 40% discounted charge if paid quickly, any subsequent letters are reminders that the full charge is due, once the discount period to the keeper has expired

all of the above is basic parking charge notice information to keepers and its been so for almost a decade (albeit you had no knowledge, it was there to be found)

if you received all paperwork regarding these 4 invoices , then you would know which if any was the POSTAL letter we know and call the NTK

I appreciate that OPS may have used ZZPS to send notices, but its either an OPS notice as they are the principal and the claimant (not ZZPS) , or both need to be sent a SAR to flush out any missing documents

this would have been far easier to sort out if you had come here first when the first pcn arrived in the post, because we would be having the same discussions and the BPA would have helped if steps were missed or not taken by OPS, in accordance with the BPA CoP

The PCN's and NTK's are copies as received by email from OPS data protection dept the other day.. Following bad advice I ignored the letters but do not have them now. I was not the driver and the original PCN's are lost. The first I knew of this was when I received the NTK and I dont think I was offered a discount opportunity. If what OPS have sent includes all the NTK's that were issued, It confirms that i did not receive an original PCN (discounted version)

Redx

agreed , but I was asking about the original pcn that you mentioned, seeing as you mentioned it in addition to the NTK that you mentioned (which may have been a reminder letter ?)

we are going round in circles here, you have the paperwork , I dont

I have told you how the system works in great detail , asking you to check the paperwork to see what was issued , when it was issued , plus if it was to the vehicle on the day or by post. the SAR should have given you ALL of this paperwork and from it you can work out which letter is which , which pcn is which , then check for the BPA CoP discount and any POFA wording , which is your job as keeper

as I said , this should have been done right at the beginning , so we would know and can advise you , now you are Poirot playing catch up, but these details are important because of you only being the RK and not the driver

the devil is in the detail, so flush out those details because its those details that help you in court

in the above reply you say this

the pcn,s

and NTK,s

so we need you to elaborate on what is a pcn , and what is an NTK, because you have stated that there are no NTK,s in those pdf replies , yet you mention NTK,s above, it cannot be both, either they are there , or they are not there


if there was no discount offered, its not an NTK

basher52

Redx wrote: »

agreed , but I was asking about the original pcn that you mentioned, seeing as you mentioned it in addition to the NTK that you mentioned (which may have been a reminder letter ?)

we are going round in circles here, you have the paperwork , I dont

I have told you how the system works in great detail , asking you to check the paperwork to see what was issued , when it was issued , plus if it was to the vehicle on the day or by post. the SAR should have given you ALL of this paperwork and from it you can work out which letter is which , which pcn is which , then check for the BPA CoP discount and any POFA wording , which is your job as keeper

as I said , this should have been done right at the beginning , so we would know and can advise you , now you are Poirot playing catch up, but these details are important because of you only being the RK and not the driver

the devil is in the detail, so flush out those details because its those details that help you in court

in the above reply you say this

the pcn,s

and NTK,s

so we need you to elaborate on what is a pcn , and what is an NTK, because you have stated that there are no NTK,s in those pdf replies , yet you mention NTK,s above, it cannot be both, either they are there , or they are not there


if there was no discount offered, its not an NTK

For example. According to the Copies rec'd, I have been given a pdf of the original pcn (reprint). Also with the email is an A4 Notice to Keeper Parking Charge Notice - letter addressed to me, issued one month after the PCN was placed on the screen There are also a number of photos. The NTK states that the discount period has passed and I am invited to pay £80-00
Of course I should not have listened to bad advice such as only the landlowner can take me to court. Clearly this is not the case as I would not have rec'd the court claim.

basher52

basher52 wrote: »

For example. According to the Copies rec'd, I have been given a pdf of the original pcn (reprint). Also with the email is an A4 Notice to Keeper Parking Charge Notice - letter addressed to me, issued one month after the PCN was placed on the screen There are also a number of photos. The NTK states that the discount period has passed and I am invited to pay £80-00
Of course I should not have listened to bad advice such as only the landlowner can take me to court. Clearly this is not the case as I would not have rec'd the court claim.

I
The NTK that I think is missing is the one that offers the keeper the opportunity to pay the discounted amount.

Redx

basher52 wrote: »

For example. According to the Copies rec'd,

a)I have been given a pdf of the original pcn (reprint).


b) Also with the email is an A4 Notice to Keeper Parking Charge Notice - letter addressed to me, issued one month after the PCN was placed on the screen There are also a number of photos. The NTK states that the discount period has passed and I am invited to pay £80-00


Of course I should not have listened to bad advice such as only the landlowner can take me to court. Clearly this is not the case as I would not have rec'd the court claim.

ok , so break it down

a) seems to be a windscreen ticket issued to the driver on the day , a NOTICE TO DRIVER , not keeper (note that fact , not keeper) , so an NTD (pcn)

b) an NTK (pcn) issued about a month later , posted to the keeper and the initial contact to the actual Registered Keeper, so this postal pcn is the actual NTK , because they cannot obtain keeper details in the first 28 days , not allowed at all

so that NTK should have had the POFA warning on it , plus the 40% discount from £80 down to £48 for early payment within 14 days, or appeal within 28 days

any reminder letter would come perhaps a fortnight to a month later , or longer, no discount and the full £80 owing

so 2 or 3 pcn,s in total (invoices)

I would check the other 3 and see if all 4 follow the same pattern, assuming they do and the discount was not offered in any of them at all, report them all to the BPA with copies of all paperwork for not discounting the charge in all 4 NTKS that were issued some 30 days after the initial windscreen ticket

so I think that you DO have the NTK,s , but they are totally incorrect and breach the BPA CoP, even if they are POFA compliant


read section 19.7 of the BPA CoP

basher52

Redx wrote: »

ok , so break it down

a) seems to be a windscreen ticket issued to the driver on the day , a NOTICE TO DRIVER , not keeper (note that fact , not keeper) , so an NTD (pcn)

b) an NTK (pcn) issued about a month later , posted to the keeper and the initial contact to the actual Registered Keeper, so this postal pcn is the actual NTK , because they cannot obtain keeper details in the first 28 days , not allowed at all

so that NTK should have had the POFA warning on it , plus the 40% discount from £80 down to £48 for early payment within 14 days, or appeal within 28 days

any reminder letter would come perhaps a fortnight to a month later , or longer, no discount and the full £80 owing

so 2 or 3 pcn,s in total (invoices)

I would check the other 3 and see if all 4 follow the same pattern, assuming they do and the discount was not offered in any of them at all, report them all to the BPA with copies of all paperwork for not discounting the charge in all 4 NTKS that were issued some 30 days after the initial windscreen ticket

so I think that you DO have the NTK,s , but they are totally incorrect and breach the BPA CoP, even if they are POFA compliant

At the bottom of the NTK, it states that the notice is given under para 9(2)(f) of schedule 4 of the PoF Act 2012 and is subject to them complying with the applicable conditions under schedule 4 of the act. Then there is a threat but no opportunity to pay a discounted amount. Its the same on all four of the copy sets emailed to me. These were sent by OPS Data Protection team.

Redx

ok , so check that wording against POFA as described in the NEWBIES thread to see if the NTK was compliant with POFA , or not

clearly it failed the BPA CoP section 19 due to not giving the discount , so report all 4 NTK,s to the BPA as a breach of section 19 and ask them to investigate all 4 because you were denied that opportunity 4 times (I assume it gave you 28 days to appeal each one ? if not report that error too)

assume that they are idiots at OPS and that they have failed to understand their BPA CoP responsilbilities , they may decide to pull the plug once discrepancies are shown up in their paperwork and also its more ammunition for your defence too

so I believe you received all your paperwork in that SAR, BUT YOU HAVE FAILED TO GRASP THE COMPLEXITIES (as has the claimant), hence my lessons today in basic parking compliance for the paper trail

if they failed POFA as well, then as keeper this is your main defence argument, no liability in law due to POFA failures , never mind other issues with those postal NTK,s

basher52

Redx wrote: »

ok , so check that wording against POFA as described in the NEWBIES thread to see if the NTK was compliant with POFA , or not

clearly it failed the BPA CoP section 19 due to not giving the discount , so report all 4 NTK,s to the BPA as a breach of section 19 and ask them to investigate all 4 because you were denied that opportunity 4 times (I assume it gave you 28 days to appeal each one ? if not report that error too)

assume that they are idiots at OPS and that they have failed to understand their BPA CoP responsilbilities , they may decide to pull the plug once discrepancies are shown up in their paperwork and also its more ammunition for your defence too

so I believe you received all your paperwork in that SAR, BUT YOU HAVE FAILED TO GRASP THE COMPLEXITIES (as has the claimant), hence my lessons today in basic parking compliance for the paper trail

if they failed POFA as well, then as keeper this is your main defence argument, no liability in law due to POFA failures , never mind other issues with those postal NTK,s

I accept that did not act correctly by keeping the paperwork, ixed messages and did not know this site / thread existed. luckily I was advised to send a SAR request and this has revealed their error. Am I to assume that ALL the OPS paperwork would have been sent under the SAR request? Would you check my defence paper to see if I should change anything now that you have a clearer understanding of my issues. My deadline is 31st and we have Christmas next week. Is email submission ok?

basher52

The appeal notification is not on the front but on the next side under useful information. There is also a section on complaints. These have to be made through the appeals process directly to OPS