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Varley Park University of Brighton - County Court Claim

edited 30 November -1 at 12:00AM in Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking
193 replies 5.8K views
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  • edited 20 December 2019 at 12:08PM
    RedxRedx Forumite
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    edited 20 December 2019 at 12:08PM
    basher52 wrote: »
    Fully understand but would rather the actions of others did not cause me to be engulfed in this mess. None the less, I will prepare a further document for the kind attention of the forum. The SAR photographic signage evidence is very small. Problem is they have been replaced at Varley Park and new signage is up. Google has limited historical evidence. Tis a frustration, as you cannot put an old head on young shoulders.
    If you are not the driver at all , but declined to name the driver before court papers arrived , then as keeper you rely on POFA as your main argument , if they failed POFA then as Keeper and not Driver you have no legal liability

    The time to name a driver was at LoC stage , if you weren't the driver

    Every NTK would have offered an early payment discount , download and read the BPA CoP

    You can assume that the signs stated £80 , seeing as it's on every NTK

    The CRA and abuse of process and DDJ Joseph decision is to reduce the figure if you lose , by getting rid of all the spurious charges etc
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
  • basher52basher52 Forumite
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    Redx wrote: »
    If you are not the driver at all , but declined to name the driver before court papers arrived , then as keeper you rely on POFA as your main argument , if they failed POFA then as Keeper and not Driver you have no legal liability

    The time to name a driver was at LoC stage , if you weren't the driver

    Every NTK would have offered an early payment discount , download and read the BPA CoP

    You can assume that the signs stated £80 , seeing as it's on every NTK

    The CRA and abuse of process and DDJ Joseph decision is to reduce the figure if you lose , by getting rid of all the spurious charges etc

    Contacted Claimant again, but what they sent over were copies of their NTK after one month requesting £80-00, with a comment that the 14 day discount had elapsed. The same on all four tickets.
  • basher52basher52 Forumite
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    Redx wrote: »
    The postal NTK would have stated that £80 was due but offered a 40% discount down to £48 if paid within 14 days (early bird discount) , followed by a second postal notice saying that it remains unpaid so the full £80 is due

    So a keeper gets 2 postal letters , the first is the NTK with a 40% discount early payment offer , followed by a second letter stating that the full amount is due

    These letters arrive regardless of any windscreen notice

    The POFA timescales depend on if a windscreen notice was issued , or not , hence 31 days us within the timescales following a windscreen notice , but fails POFA if no windscreen notice was issued

    I am trying to give you the facts , but some of your replies are ambiguous due to not knowing the true facts , not understanding POFA , not understanding how easily a keeper bwhi was driving can be questioned , not understanding that evasiveness and no honesty can work against you in court

    You are not the first to fail these understandings , but it's your name on the claim form , could be worse if you has a summons due to breaking criminal laws , like vehicular manslaughter , but then you would have legal counsel to assist

    Every pcn was£80 because the signs say so , but the BPA CoP requires a 40% discount for early payment, for each one

    "So a keeper gets 2 postal letters , the first is the NTK with a 40% discount early payment offer , followed by a second letter stating that the full amount is due"

    Would the first letter have come from the Claimant, and should have been included the documents sent following my SAR?
  • basher52basher52 Forumite
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    Dear all,

    From the information provided on the various threads, I have prepared another draft defence below.

    I have asked for confirmation SAR from claimant but looks like I was not given the option to pay with the applied discount. Please review. Running out of time
    1“ The Defendant (D) is indebted to the Claimant (C) for a Parking Charge (s) issued to vehicle XXXX at Varley Park (UOB)Bri, Varley Park (UOB)Bri, Varley Park (UOB)Bri, Varley Park (UOB)Bri. 2 The PCN details are 15/10/18 OPSxxxxxx, 23/10/18, OPSxxxxxx 5/12/18, OPSxxxxxx,06/12/18, OPSxxxxxx. 3 The PCN(s) was issued on private land owned or managed by C. The vehicle was parked in breach of the terms on Cs signs (the contract), thus incurring the PCN(s) 4. The driver agreed to pay within 28 days but did not. D is liable as the driver or keeper. Despite requests, the PCN(s) is outstanding. The contract entitles C to damages. AND THE CLAIMENT Claims
    1 £560 being the total cost of the PCN(s) and damages. 2. Interest at a rate of 8% per annum pursuant to s.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 from the date hereof at a daily rate of £0.12 until judgement or sooner payment. 3 Costs and court fees.

    IN THE COUNTY COURT

    CLAIM No: xxxxxxxxxx

    BETWEEN:

    ONE PARKING SOLUTION LTD (Claimant)

    -and-

    Xxxxxxxxxx ( Defendant)

    DEFENCE STATEMENT

    1. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.

    2. It is admitted that the Defendant was the authorised registered keeper of the vehicle in question at the time of the alleged incident.

    3. It is believed that it will be a matter of common ground that claim relates to a purported debt as the result of the issue of a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) in relation to an alleged breach of the terms and conditions by the driver of the vehicle X when it was parked at Varley Park (UOB), Brighton.

    4. It is denied that:
    4.1. A contract was formed
    4.2. There was an agreement to pay a parking charge.
    4.3. That there were Terms and Conditions prominently displayed around the site or that the parking areas were clearly delineated or the signs adequately lit.
    4.4. That in addition to the parking charge there was an agreement to pay additional and unspecified additional sums.
    4.5.The claimant company fully complied with their obligations within the British Parking Association Code of Practice of which they were member at the time.

    5. The Defendant did not enter into any ‘agreement on the charge’, no consideration or communication took place between the parties and therefore no contract was established.

    6. The Defendant denies that they would have agreed to pay the original demand of £80 to agree to the alleged contract had the terms and conditions of the contract been properly displayed and accessible.

    6.1. The amount demanded is excessive and unconscionable and especially so when compared to the level of Penalty Charge Notice issued by the local Council which is set at £50 or £25 if paid within 14 days. The Particulars of Claim, list the defendant as indebted to the Claimant for 1. Parking charges of £560-00 (4 x £140) 2. Interest at 8% per annum ( £46-70) and 3. Costs and court costs of £130-00.

    7. Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. However, it is denied that the Defendant, or any driver of the vehicle, entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct.

    8. Further and in the alternative, it is denied that the claimant’s signage sets out the terms in a sufficiently clear manner which would be capable of binding any reasonable person reading them. They merely state that vehicles must be parked correctly within their allocated parking bay, giving no definition of the term ‘correctly parked’, nor indicating which bays are allocated to whom or where visitors should park.

    9. The terms on the Claimant’s signage are also displayed in a font which is too small to be read from a passing vehicle, and is in such a position that anyone attempting to read the tiny font would be unable to do so easily. The signage was also not lit and as the alleged parking event took place on a winters evening all terms were illegible, therefore, denied that the Claimant’s signage is capable of creating a legally binding contract.

    10. If the “parking charge” listed in the particulars of claim is to be considered a written agreement between Defendant and Claimant then under 7.3, the particulars fail to include “a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement”.

    11. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient proprietary interest in the land, or that it has the necessary authorisation from the landowner to issue parking charge notices, and to pursue payment by means of litigation.

    12 The purported added 'costs' are disproportionate, a disingenuous double recovery attempt, vague and in breach of both the CPRs, and the Consumer Rights Act 2015 Schedule 2 'terms that may be unfair'.

    12.1 The arbitrary addition of a fixed sum purporting to cover 'recovery costs' is also potentially open to challenge as an unfair commercial practice under the CPRs, where 44.3 (2) states: ''Where the amount of costs is to be assessed on the standard basis, the court will –
    (a) only allow costs which are proportionate to the matters in issue. Costs which are disproportionate in amount may be disallowed or reduced even if they were reasonably or necessarily incurred; and
    (b) resolve any doubt which it may have as to whether costs were reasonably and proportionately incurred or were reasonable and proportionate in amount in favour of the paying party.

    13. Alleging that the letters the parking firm sent have caused an additional loss, is simply untrue. The standard wording for parking charge/debt recovery contracts is/was on the Debt Recovery Plus website - ''no recovery/no fee'', thus establishing an argument that the Claimant is breaching the indemnity principle - claiming reimbursement for a cost which has never, in fact, been incurred. This is true, whether or not they used a third party debt collector during the process.

    14. The Defendant has the reasonable belief that the Claimant has not incurred an additional £60 in damages or costs to pursue an alleged £80 debt. The arbitrary addition of a fixed sum purporting to cover 'damages/costs' is also potentially open to challenge as an unfair commercial practice under the CPRs, where 44.3 (2) states: ''Where the amount of costs is to be assessed on the standard basis, the court will –
    (a) only allow costs which are proportionate to the matters in issue. Costs which are disproportionate in amount may be disallowed or reduced even if they were reasonably or necessarily incurred; and
    (b) resolve any doubt which it may have as to whether costs were reasonably and proportionately incurred or were reasonable and proportionate in amount in favour of the paying party.

    14.1. Whilst quantified costs can be considered on a standard basis, this Claimant's purported added £60 'damages/costs' are wholly disproportionate, are not genuine losses at all and do not stand up to scrutiny. This has finally been recognised in many court areas. Differently from almost any other trader/consumer agreement, when it comes to parking charges on private land, binding case law and two statute laws have the effect that the parking firm's own business/operational costs cannot be added to the 'parking charge' as if they are additional losses.

    The Beavis case is against this Claim
    15. Parking Eye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 ('the Beavis case') is the authority for recovery of the parking charge itself and no more, since that sum (£85 in the Beavis case) was held to already incorporate the costs of an automated private parking business model including recovery letters. There are no losses or damages caused by this business model and the Supreme Court Judges held that a parking firm not in possession cannot plead any part of their case in damages. It is indisputable that an alleged 'parking charge' penalty is a sum which the Supreme Court found is already inflated to more than comfortably cover all costs. The case provides a finding of fact by way of precedent, that the £85 (or up to a Trade Body ceiling of £100 depending upon the parking firm) covers the costs of the letters.

    15.1. This charge is unconscionable and devoid of any 'legitimate interest', given the facts. To quote from the decision in the Beavis case at Para [108]: ''But although the terms, like all standard contracts, were presented to motorists on a take it or leave it basis, they could not have been briefer, simpler or more prominently proclaimed. If you park here and stay more than two hours, you will pay £85''. Ad at [199]: ''What matters is that a charge of the order of £85 [...] is an understandable ingredient of a scheme serving legitimate interests.''

    15.2. In the Beavis case it was said at para [205]: ''The requirement of good faith in this context is one of fair and open dealing. Openness requires that the terms should be expressed fully, clearly and legibly, containing no concealed pitfalls or traps. Appropriate prominence should be given to terms which might operate disadvantageously to the customer.''

    15.3. At para 98. {re ...The desirability of running that parking scheme at no cost, or ideally some profit, to themselves} ''Against this background, it can be seen that the £85 charge had two main objects. One was to manage the efficient use of parking space in the interests of the retail outlets, and of the users of those outlets who wish to find spaces in which to park their cars [...] The other purpose was to provide an income stream to enable ParkingEye to meet the costs of operating the scheme and make a profit from its services...''

    15.4. At para 193. ''Judging by ParkingEye’s accounts, and unless the Chelmsford car park was out of the ordinary, the scheme also covered ParkingEye's costs of operation and gave their shareholders a healthy annual profit.'' and at para 198: ''The charge has to be and is set at a level which enables the managers to recover the costs of operating the scheme. It is here also set at a level enabling ParkingEye to make a profit.''

    The POFA 2012 and the ATA Code of Practice are against this Claim
    16. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 ('the POFA') at paras 4(5) and 4(6) makes it clear that the will of Parliament regarding parking on private land is that the only sum potentially able to be recovered is the sum in any compliant 'Notice to Keeper' (further, the ceiling for a 'parking charge', as set by the Trade Bodies and the DVLA, is £100). This also depends upon the Claimant fully complying with the statute, including 'adequate notice' of the parking charge and prescribed documents served in time/with mandatory wording. It is submitted the claimant has failed on all counts and the Claimant is well aware their artificially inflated claim, as pleaded, constitutes double recovery.

    The Consumer Rights Act 2015 ('the CRA') is against this claim
    17. Further, the purported added 'costs' are disproportionate, vague and in breach of the CRA 2015 Schedule 2 'terms that may be unfair'. This Claimant has arbitrarily added an extra 60% of the parking charge in a disingenuous double recovery attempt that has already been exposed and routinely disallowed by many Courts in England and Wales. It is atrocious that this has been allowed to continue unabated for so many years, considering the number of victims receiving this Claimant's exaggerated Letter before Claim, or the claim form, who then either pay an inflated amount or suffer a default judgment for a sum that could not otherwise be recovered. It is only those who defend, who draw individual cases to the attention of the courts one by one, but at last in 2019, some areas noticed the pattern and have moved to stop this abuse of process at source.

    17.1. In the Caernarfon Court in Case number F2QZ4W28 (Vehicle Control Services Ltd v Davies) on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated: ''Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones-Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates [...] in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court in Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared [...] the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.''

    17.2. That decision in Wales was contested in a N244 application by VCS, but the added £60 was still disallowed on 30 Oct 2019. District Judge Jones-Evans stated that even in cases parking firms win, he never allows the £60 add on, and despite parking firms continuing to include it in their Particulars, most advocates have now stopped pushing for it at hearings. The Judge said that a contract formed by signage is a deemed contract, which the motorist does not have the opportunity to negotiate. That, and the fact that there is no specified sum on the signage, means that the extra £60 cannot possibly be recoverable. He said that the £60 was clearly a penalty, and an abuse of process. The considered sum in that case was reduced to £100 with a full case hearing to follow, but the £60 would not be awarded under any circumstances, and further, he ordered that the Claimant must now produce a statement of how they pleaded claims prior to Beavis, and subsequently.

    17.3. In Claim numbers F0DP806M and F0DP201T - BRITANNIA PARKING -v- Mr C and another - less than two weeks later - the courts went further in a landmark judgment in November 2019 which followed several parking charge claims being struck out in the area overseen by His Honour Judge Iain Hamilton-Douglas Hughes QC, the Designated Civil Judge for Dorset, Hampshire, Isle of Wight & Wiltshire.

    17.3.1. Cases summarily struck out in that circuit included BPA members using BW Legal's robo-claim model and IPC members using Gladstones' robo-claim model, and the Orders from that court were identical in striking out all such claims without a hearing during a prolonged period in 2019, with the Judge stating: ''It is ordered that The claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverable under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in the Beavis case. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''

    17.3.2. BW Legal made an application objecting to two 'test' cases that had been struck out by District Judge Taylor against a parking firm for trying to claim for £160 instead of £100 parking charge. This has been repeated conduct in recent years, on the back of the Beavis case, where parking firms have almost unanimously contrived to add £60, or more, on top of the 'parking charge'. Members of both ATAs who have influence on their self-serving 'Trade Bodies' have even voted to have this imaginary 'damages/debt collection' sum added to their respective two Codes of Practice, to create a veil of legitimacy, no doubt to allow their members to confuse consumers and to enable them to continue to 'get away with it' in several court areas which are still allowing this double recovery.

    17.3.3. That N244 application to try to protect the cartel-like position of some of the 'bigger player' parking firms, was placed before the area Circuit Judge and a hearing was held on 11th November 2019, with other parking charge cases in that circuit remaining struck out or stayed, pending the outcome. The Defendants successfully argued on points including a citation of the CRA 2015 and the duty of the court to apply the 'test of fairness' to a consumer notice (a statutory duty that falls upon the courts, whether a consumer raises the issue or not). All three points below were robustly upheld by District Judge Grand, sitting at the Southampton Court, who agreed that:
    (a) The Claimant knew or should have known, that £160 charge (howsoever argued or constructed) was in breach of POFA, due to paras 4(5) and 4(6).
    (b) The Claimant knew or should have known, that £160 charge (howsoever argued or constructed) was unconscionable, due to the Beavis case paras 98, 193, 198 and 287.
    (c) The Claimant knew or should have known, that £160 charge where the additional 'recovery' sum was in small print, hidden, or in the cases before him, not there at all, is void for uncertainty and in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2 (the 'grey list' of terms that may be unfair) paragraphs 6, 10 and 14.

    17.3.4. At the hearing, the Judge refused their request to appeal. It was successfully argued that the parking firm's consumer notice stood in breach of the CRA 2015, Schedule 2 (the 'grey list' of terms that may be unfair) paragraphs 6, 10 and 14. Using the statutory duty upon the Courts to consider the test of fairness and properly apply schedule 2 of the CRA 2015 it was irrelevant whether or not the consumers' defences had raised it before, which they had not. The same issues apply to this claim.

    17.3.5. A transcript will be publicly available shortly. In his summing up, it was noted that District Judge Grand stated: ''When I come to consider whether the striking out of the whole claim is appropriate, that the inclusion of the £60 charge means that the whole claim is tainted by it, the claimant should well know that it is not entitled to the £60. The very fact that they bring a claim in these circumstances seems to me that it is an abuse of process of the court, and in saying that, I observe that with any claim that can be brought before the court that if a party doesn't put in a defence to the claim, default judgments are entered. So, the Claimant, in bringing the claims is, in other cases, aware that if the defendant doesn’t submit a defence, the Claimant is going to get a judgment of a knowingly inflated amount. So I conclude by saying that I dismiss the application to set aside Judge Taylor’s ruling.''

    17.4. Consumer notices - such as car park signs - are not excused by the CRA 'core exemption'. The CMA Official Government Guidance to the CRA says: ''2.43 In addition, terms defining the main subject matter and setting the price can only benefit from the main exemption from the fairness test ('the core exemption') if they are transparent (and prominent) – see part 3 of the guidance.'' and at 3.2 ''The Act includes an exemption from the fairness test in Part 2 for terms that deal with the main subject matter of the contract or the adequacy of the price, provided they are transparent and prominent. (This exemption does not extend to consumer notices but businesses are unlikely to wish to use wording that has no legal force to determine 'core' contractual issues).'' The parking industry is the exception to this rule because they have no consumer 'customers' yet are consumer-facing. Their intention is very clearly in many cases (including this case) for a consumer not to see the onerous terms hidden in their notices and it is averred that no regard is paid to consumer law.

    17.5. The definition of a consumer notice is given at 1.19 and the test of fairness is expanded at 1.20: ''A consumer notice is defined broadly in the Act as a notice that relates to rights or obligations between a trader and a consumer, or a notice which appears to exclude or restrict a trader’s liability to a consumer. It includes an announcement or other communication, whether or not in writing, as long as it is reasonable to assume that it is intended to be seen or heard by a consumer. Consumer notices are often used, for instance, in public places such as shops or car parks as well as online and in documentation that is otherwise contractual in nature. [...] Consumer notices are, therefore, subject to control for fairness under the Act even where it could be argued that they do not form part of the contract as a matter of law. Part 2 of the Act covers consumer notices as well as terms, ensuring that, in a broad sense any wording directed by traders to consumers which has an effect comparable to that of a potentially unfair contract term is open to challenge in the same way as such a term. There is no need for technical legal arguments about whether a contract exists and whether, if it does, the wording under consideration forms part of it.''

    18. In December 2019 in a different Court circuit, Deputy District Judge Joseph sitting at Warwick County Court had clearly heard about the decisions affecting the IOW, Hampshire, Dorset and Wiltshire circuit because he summarily struck out another parking ticket claim. The Judge mentioned the POFA 2012 and the Beavis case, and determined that ''it is an abuse of process for the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover.'' Further, in issuing his Order without a hearing, the Judge stated that he had ''considered S71(2) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 for the fairness of the contract terms and determined that the provision of the additional charge breached examples 6, 10 and 14''.

    19. In summary, the Claimant's particulars disclose no legal basis for the sum claimed and it is the Defendant's position that the poorly pleaded claim discloses no cause of action and no liability in law for any sum at all. The Claimant's vexatious conduct from the outset has been intimidating, misleading, harassing and indeed untrue in terms of the added costs alleged and the statements made.

    20. The Defendant is of the view that this Claimant knew or should have known that to claim in excess of £100 for a parking charge on private land is disallowed under the CPRs, the Beavis case, the POFA and the CRA 2015, and that relief from sanctions should be refused.

    21. If this claim is not summarily struck out for the same reasons as the Judges cited in the multiple Caernarfon, Southampton, IOW and Warwick County Court decisions, then due to this Claimant knowingly proceeding with a claim that amounts to an abuse of process, full costs will be sought by the Defendant at the hearing, such as are allowable pursuant to CPR 27.14.

    In summary, it is the Defendant’s position that the claim discloses no cause of action, is without merit, and has no real prospect of success. Accordingly, the Court is invited to strike out the claim of its own initiative, using its case management powers pursuant to CPR 3.4.
    Statement of Truth:

    I believe that the facts stated in this Defence Statement are true.


    Name

    Signature


    Date
  • RedxRedx Forumite
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    basher52 wrote: »
    "So a keeper gets 2 postal letters , the first is the NTK with a 40% discount early payment offer , followed by a second letter stating that the full amount is due"

    Would the first letter have come from the Claimant, and should have been included the documents sent following my SAR?

    correct , except it can come from the claimant , or they can use a third party such as PCS acting as their "back office" for admin, but SOMEBODY had to do it , be it them or a contractual third party acting on their behalf

    the first one is classed as the Notice To Keeper (NTK) , even if it does not say so , that is the one with the POFA warning about 28 or 29 days and includes the rediuced charge figure of £48 , instead of the full amount of £80

    the second one is just a reminder invoice which states that the discount period has passed and the full £80 is due, same for all 2 pcn,s

    so if no windscreen ticket was issued , 8 letters would have arrived , 4 NTK letters with a reduced figure , plus 4 later letters stating that the discount period has lapsed and the full £80 is due (no POFA warning on the reminders)

    a SAR should have flushed out all 8, but the 4 important ones are the initial forst contact pcn,s with the early bird discount of 40% which should also have the POFA warning

    those NTK should have arrived by day 15 following the incident for POFA to apply to you as keeper

    the reminders could have arrived around day 31 , because the 28 days has elapsed lus typing them up and posting them out plus 2 days to arrive (but no discount and no POFA warning)

    sometimes the reminders dont get sent , but the postal NTK to keeper is the initial contact

    bear in mind POFA is not mandatory and so they do not have to follow POFA, but if they fail to do so and the keeper was not the driver , then they have failed to pass the legal liability from driver to keeper, meaning a keeper has no liability due to their POFA failures, even if the wording is present and correct

    they should have posted the NTK for each one around 12 days after the incident , complied with POFA warnings and requirements , dated it as 12 days after (or earlier, it could be say 2 days later , not 12) - but it must arrive with the keeper by day 15 , where day zero is the date of the incident

    times 4 in your case

    it seems to me that they failed POFA 4 times and so as keeper you have no legal liability in law
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
  • basher52basher52 Forumite
    99 posts
    10 Posts First Anniversary
    Redx wrote: »
    correct , except it can come from the claimant , or they can use a third party such as PCS acting as their "back office" for admin, but SOMEBODY had to do it , be it them or a contractual third party acting on their behalf

    the first one is classed as the Notice To Keeper (NTK) , even if it does not say so , that is the one with the POFA warning about 28 or 29 days and includes the rediuced charge figure of £48 , instead of the full amount of £80

    the second one is just a reminder invoice which states that the discount period has passed and the full £80 is due, same for all 2 pcn,s

    so if no windscreen ticket was issued , 8 letters would have arrived , 4 NTK letters with a reduced figure , plus 4 later letters stating that the discount period has lapsed and the full £80 is due (no POFA warning on the reminders)

    a SAR should have flushed out all 8, but the 4 important ones are the initial forst contact pcn,s with the early bird discount of 40% which should also have the POFA warning

    those NTK should have arrived by day 15 following the incident for POFA to apply to you as keeper

    the reminders could have arrived around day 31 , because the 28 days has elapsed lus typing them up and posting them out plus 2 days to arrive (but no discount and no POFA warning)

    sometimes the reminders dont get sent , but the postal NTK to keeper is the initial contact

    bear in mind POFA is not mandatory and so they do not have to follow POFA, but if they fail to do so and the keeper was not the driver , then they have failed to pass the legal liability from driver to keeper, meaning a keeper has no liability due to their POFA failures, even if the wording is present and correct

    they should have posted the NTK for each one around 12 days after the incident , complied with POFA warnings and requirements , dated it as 12 days after (or earlier, it could be say 2 days later , not 12) - but it must arrive with the keeper by day 15 , where day zero is the date of the incident

    times 4 in your case

    it seems to me that they failed POFA 4 times and so as keeper you have no legal liability in law
    I have asked Claimant for confirmation of who sent original request with the offer but as yet I have not had a response. If it were ZZPS They have said that they have a month (to respond) once they have verified my identity. This has the potential to arrive after my defence deadline of 31st. In view of the hold I should send this off by Monday 23rd. My draft defence is up again. Big lesson, do not assume all junk mail is junk mail.
  • basher52basher52 Forumite
    99 posts
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    From what I have from Claimant, they have not sent me the first NTK with the discount option. Unless someone else did it for them.
  • edited 20 December 2019 at 3:20PM
    RedxRedx Forumite
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    edited 20 December 2019 at 3:20PM
    you mentioned the 29 day POFA warning , that is usually on the first NTK only, the 40% discounted rate for 14 days required by the BPA CoP should also be on there

    some companies like Parking Eye remove that POFA paragraph when they know that they failed POFA , in their case due to timescales, the rest of the NTK from Parking Eye will be POFA compliant , so its about timescales in their case

    I have no idea if OPS followed POFA, but coupon-mad and parkingmad would probably know , I also do not know if they use third parties like ZZPS to do the back office work, but they are shysters too and tend to fail the basics

    I suspect the 4 NTK you were issued in the SAR were actual NTK letters with pofa warnings, so should have had the 40% discount offered too. if not , complain to the BPA and enclose copies of the paperwork, it might help to clarify your POFA position and what these letters were, NTK letters or reminders

    OPS are in breach of the BPA CoP if they failed to follow any of it, good ammunition for a court case , but bear in mind no PPC has to follow POFA, but if they fail to plan , they plan to fail
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
  • basher52basher52 Forumite
    99 posts
    10 Posts First Anniversary
    Redx wrote: »
    you mentioned the 29 day POFA warning , that is usually on the first NTK only, the 40% discounted rate for 14 days required by the BPA CoP should also be on there

    some companies like Parking Eye remove that POFA paragraph when they know that they failed POFA , in their case due to timescales, the rest of the NTK from Parking Eye will be POFA compliant , so its about timescales in their case

    I have no idea if OPS followed POFA, but coupon-mad and parkingmad would probably know , I also do not know if they use third parties like ZZPS to do the back office work, but they are shysters too and tend to fail the basics

    I suspect the 4 NTK you were issued in the SAR were actual NTK letters with pofa warnings, so should have had the 40% discount offered too. if not , complain to the BPA and enclose copies of the paperwork, it might help to clarify your POFA position and what these letters were, NTK letters or reminders

    OPS are in breach of the BPA CoP if they failed to follow any of it, good ammunition for a court case , but bear in mind no PPC has to follow POFA, but if they fail to plan , they plan to fail
    Just to clarify in my tiny head, I sent my SAR to OPS. They sent over 4 PDF sets of 1 - the original PCN 2 - NTK dated a month later. OPS have not sent the letters that provides the opportunity to pay at the discounted price. ZZPs have only acknowledged my request, claiming they have a month to respond. Ultimately, this means that I will know if they sent the earlier offer discount letter after I have submitted my defence. Can I use that (if they have failed in this respect) in my witness statement for the actual court hearing? Phew!
  • basher52basher52 Forumite
    99 posts
    10 Posts First Anniversary
    basher52 wrote: »
    Just to clarify in my tiny head, I sent my SAR to OPS. They sent over 4 PDF sets of 1 - the original PCN 2 - NTK dated a month later. OPS have not sent the letters that provides the opportunity to pay at the discounted price. ZZPs have only acknowledged my request, claiming they have a month to respond. Ultimately, this means that I will know if they sent the earlier offer discount letter after I have submitted my defence. Can I use that (if they have failed in this respect) in my witness statement for the actual court hearing? Phew!

    I hope PM and C-m are watching as I dont know where else to look.
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