Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

Everything you wanted to know about 2nd life use of EV batteries, but were too afraid to ask:

The 2nd Life Of Used EV Batteries

As the market for electric vehicles grows, so too will the supply of second-life batteries. Forecasts from academic studies and industry reports estimate a range of 112–275 GWh per year of second-life batteries becoming available by 2030 globally. For context, this is over 200 times total energy storage installed in the US in 2018 (~780 MWh).

California is the largest market for EVs in the US, and by 2027, an estimated 45,000 EV batteries will be retired from the state. Assuming a conservative capacity for each of these batteries (25 kWh), this amounts to over 1 GWh/year of available storage in the Golden State.

Martyn1981

This article is keen to stress that the sample size is too small to prove anything, but just as has been seen in the US, German BEV buyers seem to be buying vehicles more expensive than the models they are trading in proving suggesting that buyers understand that BEV's have a lower TCO, even if they initially cost more ........ or they just wanted a BEV! 

German Drivers Of German Cars Switching To Tesla Model 3 — Very Limited Data

Tesla believes the data shows people are finally beginning to grasp that true cost of ownership is more important than sticker price. Less money for fuel, less money for maintenance, and less money lost to depreciation means the more expensive car to buy can turn out to be the less expensive car to own.

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

This article is keen to stress that the sample size is too small to prove anything, but just as has been seen in the US, German BEV buyers seem to be buying vehicles more expensive than the models they are trading in proving suggesting that buyers understand that BEV's have a lower TCO, even if they initially cost more ........ or they just wanted a BEV!   

German Drivers Of German Cars Switching To Tesla Model 3 — Very Limited Data

Tesla believes the data shows people are finally beginning to grasp that true cost of ownership is more important than sticker price. Less money for fuel, less money for maintenance, and less money lost to depreciation means the more expensive car to buy can turn out to be the less expensive car to own.

That’s not surprising: as the article says

The only people who don’t like an electric car are people who have never driven an electric car.

However the article does stress the importance of brand loyalty and once there is a better choice we might see a switch back to the premium German brands as is already happening in Norway. I do see the German manufacturers becoming first choice for EVs in Europe. The German government have sensibly realised both the threat and the potential so they are providing a significant stimulus for R&D into EVs to help their home manufacturers as well as the individual vehicle subsidies.

While Teslas have been very popular among first adopters, techies and the better off environmentalists I suspect some of the more traditional petrolheads have been waiting for mainstream performance car manufacturers to enter the field. My next door neighbour who has a Lamborghini, Aston Martin and a performance Audi is now seriously looking at an EV. Despite one of his clients telling him his Tesla is the best car he’s ever had, I think an M3, S or X is a bit too left field for him. The fact that the guy living opposite has just ordered a Taycan (having owned Ferraris and Porsches for the 30 years I have known him) has I believe given EVs a bit of a credibility boost on my road in a way that my Leaf just can’t manage. 

The tide is turning.

NigeWick

JKenH said:However the article does stress the importance of brand loyalty and once there is a better choice we might see a switch back to the premium German brands as is already happening in Norway. 

One of the best things about Tesla is their rapid charging stations. Then there's their efficiency that only the Koreans have come close to at present. My 64kWh Kona will do 200 miles at 70mph in below freezing temperatures with the heating & aircon on. It would be just about perfect if it would charge at 250kW as the Tesla M3 will. And, there were chargers available to do it where I do longer journies.

JKenH

NigeWick said:

JKenH said:However the article does stress the importance of brand loyalty and once there is a better choice we might see a switch back to the premium German brands as is already happening in Norway. 

One of the best things about Tesla is their rapid charging stations. Then there's their efficiency that only the Koreans have come close to at present. My 64kWh Kona will do 200 miles at 70mph in below freezing temperatures with the heating & aircon on. It would be just about perfect if it would charge at 250kW as the Tesla M3 will. And, there were chargers available to do it where I do longer journies.

Yes, I’ve heard that the Kona tops the charts for range and efficiency. I was interested in one but gave up with my Hyundai dealer whose salesman seemed to lack any knowledge of the product and was generally unhelpful about a test drive or delivery dates and I stuck with Nissan. (I did have a couple of test drives in the Kia e-Niro which I really liked but was not prepared to wait a year for one.) The Tesla M3 also had a long wait at the time and the buying process didn’t appeal to me. My wife also tells me she couldn’t live with a glovebox that could only be accessed via several taps in the touchscreen.

Fortunately for me, my lifestyle doesn’t involve many long distance trips and apart from driving my Leaf home from the dealership it hasn’t been on a motorway. I haven’t had to use a rapid charger yet either. I know the Leaf falls short on efficiency (best I have managed is 5 miles/kwh and 170 miles travelled with 7 miles left to very low battery warning and that is taking it easy) but I hadn’t realised the Tesla M3 SR was in the same league as the Kona on either range or efficiency.

Martyn1981

NigeWick said:

JKenH said:However the article does stress the importance of brand loyalty and once there is a better choice we might see a switch back to the premium German brands as is already happening in Norway. 

One of the best things about Tesla is their rapid charging stations. Then there's their efficiency that only the Koreans have come close to at present. My 64kWh Kona will do 200 miles at 70mph in below freezing temperatures with the heating & aircon on. It would be just about perfect if it would charge at 250kW as the Tesla M3 will. And, there were chargers available to do it where I do longer journies.

Also a potential cost saving having lots of fast chargers as the 200-250 mile range of the TM3 SR+ and ability to charge at 1,000mph would seem to negate the need for a bigger battery. Though £6.5k for an extra 100 miles AWD and 4.4s 0-60 is a temptingly priced package.

Be interesting to see what efficiency/range increases it gets if they slap the heatpump in that the TMY comes with.

michaels

Martyn1981 said:

NigeWick said:

JKenH said:However the article does stress the importance of brand loyalty and once there is a better choice we might see a switch back to the premium German brands as is already happening in Norway. 

One of the best things about Tesla is their rapid charging stations. Then there's their efficiency that only the Koreans have come close to at present. My 64kWh Kona will do 200 miles at 70mph in below freezing temperatures with the heating & aircon on. It would be just about perfect if it would charge at 250kW as the Tesla M3 will. And, there were chargers available to do it where I do longer journies.

Also a potential cost saving having lots of fast chargers as the 200-250 mile range of the TM3 SR+ and ability to charge at 1,000mph would seem to negate the need for a bigger battery. Though £6.5k for an extra 100 miles AWD and 4.4s 0-60 is a temptingly priced package.

Be interesting to see what efficiency/range increases it gets if they slap the heatpump in that the TMY comes with.

Problem with electric car efficiency is it is hard to care about the difference between 3p a mile and 4p a mile when you are coming from petrol that costs 15p per mile.

Martyn1981

michaels said:

Martyn1981 said:

NigeWick said:

JKenH said:However the article does stress the importance of brand loyalty and once there is a better choice we might see a switch back to the premium German brands as is already happening in Norway. 

One of the best things about Tesla is their rapid charging stations. Then there's their efficiency that only the Koreans have come close to at present. My 64kWh Kona will do 200 miles at 70mph in below freezing temperatures with the heating & aircon on. It would be just about perfect if it would charge at 250kW as the Tesla M3 will. And, there were chargers available to do it where I do longer journies.

Also a potential cost saving having lots of fast chargers as the 200-250 mile range of the TM3 SR+ and ability to charge at 1,000mph would seem to negate the need for a bigger battery. Though £6.5k for an extra 100 miles AWD and 4.4s 0-60 is a temptingly priced package.

Be interesting to see what efficiency/range increases it gets if they slap the heatpump in that the TMY comes with.

Problem with electric car efficiency is it is hard to care about the difference between 3p a mile and 4p a mile when you are coming from petrol that costs 15p per mile.

We were discussing efficiency as it relates to range. Greater efficiency gives you more range, and also means that for any given charging time you are adding more range to the vehicle.

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

NigeWick said:

JKenH said:However the article does stress the importance of brand loyalty and once there is a better choice we might see a switch back to the premium German brands as is already happening in Norway. 

One of the best things about Tesla is their rapid charging stations. Then there's their efficiency that only the Koreans have come close to at present. My 64kWh Kona will do 200 miles at 70mph in below freezing temperatures with the heating & aircon on. It would be just about perfect if it would charge at 250kW as the Tesla M3 will. And, there were chargers available to do it where I do longer journies.

Also a potential cost saving having lots of fast chargers as the 200-250 mile range of the TM3 SR+ and ability to charge at 1,000mph would seem to negate the need for a bigger battery. Though £6.5k for an extra 100 miles AWD and 4.4s 0-60 is a temptingly priced package.

Be interesting to see what efficiency/range increases it gets if they slap the heatpump in that the TMY comes with.

The point you made about the cost saving from a smaller battery got me thinking. Comparing the two battery sizes of the Nissan Leaf in identical Tekna trim, the  40kwh is just under £30,000 and the 62 kwh Is approximately £7,500 more expensive - so a 25% increase which gives you increased range of 239 compared to 168 miles for the smaller batteried car. Whether one pays the extra depends on what your needs are. 

Imagine now for a minute you were buying an ICE car and you had the choice of one with a 168 mile range or one with 239 mile range for an extra 25% cost. I wonder which would be the more popular car?

It would again depend on what your needs are I suppose. If all you needed was a car for commuting 30 miles round trip each day then the cheaper car does still make sense. Would people buy it? Does anyone consider range when buying an ICE car?

It is interesting that Hyundai dropped the 39kwh but Nissan have continued to offer both 40 and 62 kwh Leafs and I believe the 40kwh car is still the bigger seller. Maybe Hyundai slightly misjudged the pricing as the premium for the 64 over the 39kwh model was only £4500. Is range anxiety now less of an issue and would a 39kwh Kona sell well if the price differential against the 64 kwh car was £7500 like the Leaf? 

EVandPV

JKenH said:

Does anyone consider range when buying an ICE car?

I doubt many do, I certainly haven't in the past. Probably because you just assume an ice will get you as far as your likely to need and also due to the availability of petrol pumps.
Must admit though, I was more comfortable buying my 40kwh Zoe given that my wife has an ice, even though it's extremely rare for us to drive further than the 180 miles range of the Zoe in one journey.
Would I have still have bought at the time it if we only had one car, I'm not sure but having driven it for a year now, I wouldn't have any worries at all if we had to get rid of the ice and go down to one car.