Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

silverwhistle

I'm more worried by other costs per mile. Not being male I've been unable to do man maths to justify a new EV, much as I've been trying. I've calculated that the capital cost per mile on my current car, bought second hand in 2013, is just under 10 per mile, plus routine service costs for standard wear-and-tear items. For a new (example) Zoe on lease the cost is 50p+ per mile, and such is the way leases are going you'd need to own the car from new more than 8 years before buying outright becomes cheaper than successive leases.

I would save on fuel, particularly as I have solar panels and Agile, but the calculation is still what value, whether comfort or prestige, do I put on having a newer car? Not a lot to be honest. I'm as sceptical as Z over transport as a service, and I do value the jump in and go ability of having my own car, and at times and to places and distances that any transport service would not be appropriate. Walking, cycling and train do much of my moving - not sure I've used a taxi at all this last 12 month and the year before once, to my football club annual presentation night, and buses are too expensive..!

So although it's good to see EVs such as Tesla doing well in the market I'm still waiting at the other end. It won't be man-maths that finally makes me justify the EV premium, but environmental considerations.  

michaels

silverwhistle said:

I'm more worried by other costs per mile. Not being male I've been unable to do man maths to justify a new EV, much as I've been trying. I've calculated that the capital cost per mile on my current car, bought second hand in 2013, is just under 10 per mile, plus routine service costs for standard wear-and-tear items. For a new (example) Zoe on lease the cost is 50p+ per mile, and such is the way leases are going you'd need to own the car from new more than 8 years before buying outright becomes cheaper than successive leases.

I would save on fuel, particularly as I have solar panels and Agile, but the calculation is still what value, whether comfort or prestige, do I put on having a newer car? Not a lot to be honest. I'm as sceptical as Z over transport as a service, and I do value the jump in and go ability of having my own car, and at times and to places and distances that any transport service would not be appropriate. Walking, cycling and train do much of my moving - not sure I've used a taxi at all this last 12 month and the year before once, to my football club annual presentation night, and buses are too expensive..!

So although it's good to see EVs such as Tesla doing well in the market I'm still waiting at the other end. It won't be man-maths that finally makes me justify the EV premium, but environmental considerations.  

Comparing a new car and a used car the new car will always lose on depreciation.  Perhaps you should consider someone choosing between a 6 year old leaf or focus for about 6k.  For this person if the leaf does the range they need then the fuel saving will outweigh all else.

JKenH

silverwhistle said:

I'm more worried by other costs per mile. Not being male I've been unable to do man maths to justify a new EV, much as I've been trying. I've calculated that the capital cost per mile on my current car, bought second hand in 2013, is just under 10 per mile, plus routine service costs for standard wear-and-tear items. For a new (example) Zoe on lease the cost is 50p+ per mile, and such is the way leases are going you'd need to own the car from new more than 8 years before buying outright becomes cheaper than successive leases.

I would save on fuel, particularly as I have solar panels and Agile, but the calculation is still what value, whether comfort or prestige, do I put on having a newer car? Not a lot to be honest. I'm as sceptical as Z over transport as a service, and I do value the jump in and go ability of having my own car, and at times and to places and distances that any transport service would not be appropriate. Walking, cycling and train do much of my moving - not sure I've used a taxi at all this last 12 month and the year before once, to my football club annual presentation night, and buses are too expensive..!

So although it's good to see EVs such as Tesla doing well in the market I'm still waiting at the other end. It won't be man-maths that finally makes me justify the EV premium, but environmental considerations.  

Now I hope nobody bites my head off for saying this but men do seem keener on EVs than women. Women don’t apply man maths like we do. I think most women just regard a car as a means of getting from A to B with a reasonable degree of comfort and minimum inconvenience.

My wife does not dislike driving our Leaf but when I suggested we swap her 2011 Picanto for a small EV the answer was a firm no. She would much prefer a new petrol Kia Picanto. 

She is comfortable with calling at a petrol station but the idea of charging an EV puts her off. (Maybe in part it’s witnessing the odd less than successful attempt at public charging when we got our first Leaf.) She wants to know her car is already to go wherever and whenever she wants. Driving isn’t something she does out of choice, it’s a chore. She doesn’t want to make a journey any more complicated than it need be. She doesn’t want to have to worry about the car being charged before she sets off and certainly doesn’t want to charge en route or mess about charging at destination. She sees the potential for something to go wrong. She is quite happy filling her car up at a petrol station as she has never experienced a petrol station where she couldn’t get a pump to work (and neither have I). If a petrol pump is out of order there is always a sign on it saying so that you see as you drive    up to it. You just choose another one and if that one is busy you wait five minutes. EV chargers are not yet at that level of reliability and most are unattended so no one on hand to help if It won’t work or you can’t get the charging cable to release. 

I love driving and the feel of an EV. When I got my first Leaf I had always planned on keeping my diesel Golf but within two months it was gone. I have a Mercedes Convertible with a glorious 9 speed auto gearbox that I loved so much that I said I would keep it forever. I have driven it just once since February and that really was just to give it a run. That is how much I like my Leaf, I just want to get in it and drive. If my wife wants to go somewhere I take her and sit in the car and wait. TAAS has arrived at our house.

My wife can’t understand me and I accept that. It is just a bloke thing and EVs at the moment don’t work for my wife and don’t work for you. Your old car suits you just like my wife’s suits her and long may we have that choice. Until one can buy a used EV for £1k that will do 200 miles comfortably there will be ICE cars on the road.

Martyn1981

silverwhistle said:

I'm more worried by other costs per mile. Not being male I've been unable to do man maths to justify a new EV, much as I've been trying. I've calculated that the capital cost per mile on my current car, bought second hand in 2013, is just under 10 per mile, plus routine service costs for standard wear-and-tear items. For a new (example) Zoe on lease the cost is 50p+ per mile, and such is the way leases are going you'd need to own the car from new more than 8 years before buying outright becomes cheaper than successive leases.

I would save on fuel, particularly as I have solar panels and Agile, but the calculation is still what value, whether comfort or prestige, do I put on having a newer car? Not a lot to be honest. I'm as sceptical as Z over transport as a service, and I do value the jump in and go ability of having my own car, and at times and to places and distances that any transport service would not be appropriate. Walking, cycling and train do much of my moving - not sure I've used a taxi at all this last 12 month and the year before once, to my football club annual presentation night, and buses are too expensive..!

So although it's good to see EVs such as Tesla doing well in the market I'm still waiting at the other end. It won't be man-maths that finally makes me justify the EV premium, but environmental considerations.  

If, and I stress if, you have say £10k to spare and can operate within a range of 60-80 miles between charges, then you might find it interesting to do some calculations, but I'm in no way trying to push the BEV angle, just sharing info. So, for us we do about 8k miles pa (UK average), probably spent about £1,200 on petrol, so compare that to say 1,000kWh on leccy import (perhaps E7 if this lifts your consumption high enough to justify it) and 1,000kWh on PV, so hopefully you will save around £1k pa on fuel. Then you have reduced maintenance, VED and servicing. You will also need to consider reduced depreciation as BEV's do quite well, but there again if the ICE is much cheaper to buy (retain ownership), then even a high rate of depreciation, might still be similar in pound notes.

If you think that the annual savings give you a good return on the £10k (minus the value of your ICE), then a 5+yr old Leaf or similar might be worth a ponder.

Hope none of this is patronising, and of course at these ages and prices you will first need to decide if the range is enough, can you get lifts with friends for other trips, even perhaps justify a rental for long trips.

Martyn1981

Barging in with some BEV news of a watery variety:

Wärtsilä, Engie, ING Bank Develop Emissions-Free Barge Business With Interchangeable Energy Containers

Zero Emission Services was founded on June 2, 2020. It intends to make inland waterway shipping more acceptable, cleaner. Replaceable battery, ZESPacks, containers will be used for fully electric propulsion. At the moment, inland navigation accounts for 5 percent of carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions within the Netherlands transport sector, so this development could help to cut a significant amount of pollution in the country.

The new system makes it easy for barge operators to go electric by taking away the challenge of higher upfront costs and offering a “pay-per-use” financing model instead. “ZES charges only for the cost of consumed renewable energy plus a rental fee for the battery container, so the skipper’s operating costs remain competitive.” As we can see, the venture aims to make the transition to emission-free sailing easy.

Wärtsilä: “A network of open access charging points will be set up for exchanging depleted battery containers for ready-charged replacements, thereby keeping waiting time to a minimum. The ZESPacks are designed for multiple applications, enabling them to be utilized for temporary onshore use, such as stabilizing the local electricity grid or meeting short-term demand for electrical power.”

silverwhistle

Thank you michaels, JKenH and Martyn1981 for your comments. They are all entirely valid and I think I've considered all or most of them. As an ex-systems analyst I've probably taken a fairly rational view. So.. an older Leaf probably doesn't do it on the winter range I need, particularly carrying other people, as I would be doing. There would be no margin of error with an older Leaf.

Unlike JkenH's wife I'd have no inherent problems with an EV or charging one. I have solar panels and Agile and was explaining to an old friend today over a glass this afternoon how I benefit (and could benefit even more with an EV): his comment was that I could get a job advising on energy use.:-) I am certain I see no point in replacing an ICE with another one when push comes to shove, but I'm a single vehicle household and there'd be no other car as fallback.

Martyn, I could throw down 15 or even 20k on a car, although I'd need to get hard-standing and a charger out the front, so take off ~3 K for that. But as you will appreciate, depreciation on a 4K car after 6 years is minimal, and as pointed out, my servicing costs have been low as well. I've naturally taken into account my own low electricity charges when playing with costs.

It's quite interesting doing the research, and I think we all put our thinking on here to help others come to their own decisions. I might take a sudden decision on a really good two year lease deal, but I think my current conclusion is to wait a couple of years to wait for better value and, more importantly, better range in the SH market. Unless, of course, somebody rear ends my current car! ;-)

michaels

More man maths but our leaf is letting us take part in a v2g trail which I hope will prove to be a nice earner in conjunction with our PV exports - this trial is now closed to new participants but if you live in Western DNO electricity area I believe they are starting a trial.

We have a use case that makes the leaf a no brainer but I would struggle with it being our only car, could probably make it work plus hiring but currently we have a second 'pre depreciated' car that (c19 permitting) we probably use once every 2 weeks and for the very occasional journey over over 80 miles round trip (3x per year?) and a week in the summer - less than 2k in the year but still cheaper and more convenient than hiring.

silverwhistle

Yes, yet another potential solution. I wonder how cheaply I could get the insurance on my existing car down to.. :-)

michaels

silverwhistle said:

Yes, yet another potential solution. I wonder how cheaply I could get the insurance on my existing car down to.. :-)

Not allowed to do referrals here but for our second car we are with a company called 'byMiles' who charge us £170 per year plus 3p per mile and if you sign up having been referred you get £50 of free miles per year which for us covers all our annual miles.  We also only do minimal servicing on the pre-depreciated car as it does so few miles and have actually sorned it for the moment due to C19.

Martyn1981

Hiya SW, just some very rough numbers for you, and I'm sticking with a Leaf just to keep the numbers a bit more controlled. For upto/around £10k you can get a 24kWh Leaf, but being smaller batt and older, may only give you a solid 60 miles in the winter. Ours managed 80 miles but I used ECO mode, stuck to 65mph and didn't heat the cabin, just steering wheel and seat heater. For a more sensible and comfortable drive, especially if you have friends on board, then 60 miles would be a sensible guide.

£10k-£12k should edge you into the early 30kWh models and lift range another 20 miles. Your budget (£17k?) might not stretch to a 40kWh model as they came out later so are newer/more expensive, but that should give you a solid 100 miles+ in worst case, and would charge faster at a rapid charger.

Again, not trying to preach, just some ideas for you to ponder whilst you wait for the choice and prices of SH to expand in your direction. If you are to go BEV only, then you do need to consider that worst case range and as you say margin of error, and for cost savings (mainly fuel) the benefits increase with mileage, so if you don't do a lot, the person-maths at this point may not work.

PS - I can very strongly recommend Solarchaser for some virtual hand holding and advice (hope he doesn't mind).