Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

michaels said:

If you assume that it is biofuels that are burned to grow the biofuels but in reality it is almost certainly just plain ol diesel in the tractors and combines.

If you need a medium that allows you to store PV then there is hydrogen to convert to ammonia or whatever - more efficient than biofuels?

Yes, the FF's being burned, and the related emissions to produce the bio-fuel (assuming the bio-fuel itself is net zero emission across the carbon cycle) is equivalent to 80% to 120% of the emissions of just burning the FF's. Or to put it another way, to produce X amount of bio-fuel, you will consume around 80%-120% of fuel.

The actual issue is far worse, as it uses about 40% of US corn land (about 30m acres) to grow corn for ethanol (a product not edible for humans, more like cardboard), which could be used to grow food, or produce RE leccy. Then there's the water consumption issue, and the large amount of fertilizer run-off (fertilizer production and use is included in that 80-120% figure).

I forget the exact number, but I think it's about 1/3rd to 1/2half of that corn ethanol land was (theoretically) used for PV, it would generate the equivalent of the whole US's future leccy consumption, including 100% BEV road transport.

QrizB

zeupater said:

Regarding the emissions comparison ... we continually see this flawed logic raised,

I don't know who "we" are but you've completely misunderstood.

zeupater said:

The argument invariably concentrates on the differential in energy density

This has nothing to do with energy density.

zeupater said:

In reality - even if considering bio-fuel energy CO2 emissions as being at the top end of the range posed (120% of comparative FF by unit mass),

That's not the argument being made.

The argument is that (inclding fuel production etc) the net carbon released when driving an ICE vehicle 1 mile while running on biofuels is 120% of the carbon released when driving the same vehicle 1 mile with fossil fuels.

Edit to add a few references:

https://www.transportenvironment.org/articles/crop30-why-burning-food-for-land-hungry-biofuels-is-fueling-the-climate-crisis

https://www.wri.org/research/rethinking-biofuels-us-midwest

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/16022022/corn-ethanol-gasoline-climate-change/

zeupater said:

HTH - Z 

You've missed the point completely, and no it doesn't help.

thevilla

If we left the transition to market forces we would burn coal, oil and gas until the economic impact of climate change finally destroys the economy. Only those holding the reins at the time would be held to account as those getting rich now will have jumped ship long beforehand. 

The idea that governments never need to intervene and facilitate a change is laughable.  It is the short termism of party politics which is massively frustrating. (In my opinion).😁

Martyn1981

thevilla said:

If we left the transition to market forces we would burn coal, oil and gas until the economic impact of climate change finally destroys the economy. Only those holding the reins at the time would be held to account as those getting rich now will have jumped ship long beforehand. 

The idea that governments never need to intervene and facilitate a change is laughable.  It is the short termism of party politics which is massively frustrating. (In my opinion).😁

That's been my thinking for some time about the 'BEVolution'. Legacy auto has been dragging its feet, which it kinda has every right to do, if it really wants. But that will ensure their demise, and the loss of jobs, in the medium to long term.

This short article today from Transport and the Environment covers this issue (and co-incidentally) a bit on alternative fuels too.

The EU’s 2035 Target IS The Certainty That The Industry Needs

The real race is not between the US and Europe. It is between western automakers and Chinese ones. If western car brands want to have any chance of competing in China and emerging markets that are going electric fast, they need a strong home market.

Without regulation there will be no transformation of the legacy auto industry. Instead, scrapping the EU’s car CO2 rules would lead to lower investment and rentseeking. Yes, that might boost short-term profits but it also ensures oblivion in the longer run.

What about biofuels? Wastes like used cooking oil and animal fats don’t grow from the ground and the crop biofuels that do, such as corn, soy and palm oil, require vast amounts of land. These are absurdly complicated and unreliable solutions, especially when you consider an affordable and scalable alternative is available in electric.

michaels

Economics knows all about externalities (missing markets) and that govt intervention is the correct response and yet when it comes to climate change there is a temporal dimension which as we can tell from govt borrowing, the populace discount the future much too heavily.

zeupater

michaels said:

If you assume that it is biofuels that are burned to grow the biofuels but in reality it is almost certainly just plain ol diesel in the tractors and combines.

If you need a medium that allows you to store PV then there is hydrogen to convert to ammonia or whatever - more efficient than biofuels?

Hi

Potentially, that may be the case ... however ... firstly it doesn't have to be as the either biodiesel or electrons can replace process embedded FF emissions and secondly ... note the purposeful inclusion of the caveat "at combustion stage", because that's where simple conversion comparisons are normally made (ie, excluding energy consumed through production, processing, distribution etc), for example the claims that vehicle CO2 emissions from sustainable bio-fuels were worse than those related to FF were simply based on a raw MPG and related exhaust emission calculation, totally ignoring the embedded carbon cycle timelines ... whether this was intentional or simple ignorance is purely down to the competence of those making the claims, but I doubt that it would fool all of the people all of the time, especially if some actually took time to actually think the process through ....  .

What needs to be considered is that, in their most basic form, biofuels can simply be converted into energy through basic combustion, which could be performed extremely close to the point of creation, so very little in the way of physical distribution and virtually no processing inefficiencies. The more complex the processing/refining for onward storage, the less efficient the overall conversion to energy, which effectively describes the issues involved within the economic viability of using hydrogen as an energy storage & delivery medium .... while the cost of energy involved in the processing & delivery of the product remains uneconomical against the value of alternatives the product itself remains unviable, hence the total lack of hydrogen on garage forecourts. 

HTH - Z

Heedtheadvice

On a ( minor) positive not, received this today from Charge Place Scotland ( sort of organisers of the gov scheme of their public chargers in Scotland).

"We’re delighted to share some inspiring news about the collective impact of Scotland’s EV community. 

Thanks to the support of Scotland’s EV drivers, an outstanding £94,681.07 has been donated to Trees for Life, helping restore the ancient Caledonian Forest and rebuild vital habitats across the Scottish Highlands. 

This achievement has been made possible through the partnership between ChargePlace Scotland and Evolt Charging (powered by SWARCO), who operate the ChargePlace Scotland network and facilitated the donation to Trees for Life. 

How Your Support Helps 

The contribution made by Scotland’s EV drivers is enabling Trees for Life to: 

• Plant native tree species such as Scots Pine, Rowan, Birch, Aspen, and Juniper 
• Restore habitats for Red Squirrels, Pine Martens, Golden Eagles, and other wildlife
• Rewild degraded landscapes to boost biodiversity and improve ecological resilience
• Grow nature recovery sites like the Dundreggan Estate, transforming depleted land into thriving woodland 

Together, these efforts are helping rebuild some of Scotland’s most precious natural ecosystems. 

By choosing electric and supporting initiatives like this, Scotland’s EV drivers are playing a meaningful role in shaping a cleaner, greener, and wilder future for Scotland. 

Thank you for making a meaningful difference. "

Well I do not use those public chargers much and wonder if the message is part of a charm offensive? I have had cause to complain about the network of several occasions ( getting remote support where charging fails or sorting out other issues with the network management - approx 5 out of six charges have issues).   or maybe they just have my email address.

Positive news I suppose but a £1m contribution from the Scot Gov would be more impressive.