Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

EricMears said:

Martyn1981 said:

Info from UK Gov, which looks promising:

New laws to make charging an electric vehicle easier and quicker

• new laws passed to make charging an electric vehicle easier, quicker and more reliable

But there's nothing there to suggest it might get cheaper !

Luckily,  I seldom have to charge away from home so majority of my charging is done at 7.5ppu giving <2.5ppm but it comes as rather a shock when I need a top-up on a longer trip.  Ionity @61ppu seems to be a 'best buy' (thankyou Octopus !) but 80+ppu is often offered -  i.e.  more than 10 times my home cost.

Comparison is often made of the premium price of ICE fuel on a motorway but they're never 10x the price at a supermarket (usually less than a 20% uplift).  Of course there's a huge cost in providing a rapid charger but it's not exactly cheap to install tanks and pumps either.

Hi Eric, I don't know if this helps, but a non-Tesla friend has signed up for Tesla superchargers. When they were costing ~40p/kWh for Tesla's, he paid 53p. Now I see the prices have dropped, and vary from 35p to 37p* on the ones I just clicked on, so perhaps 50p(ish) for non-Tesla's(?), but don't quote me on that.

Thinking about it, do you have a Leaf, as I've no idea if there's a way for you to use them.

*But around 47p peak, typically around 4pm to 8pm.

orrery

1961Nick said:

 I guess that if the Government does eventually pull it's finger out regarding the current CFD impasse & wind capacity does reach 50GW, then there will be enough spare overnight capacity to produce hydrogen cheaply & the relative inefficiency of a FCEV compared to a BEV won't matter.

Why so? Don't forget that EVs will also benefit from power surpluses. Hydrogen will always have a 'floor' price that relates to generation and compression/refrigeration costs, transport costs etc that even in the case where leccy is free, H2 will still be relatively unattractive. EVs are successful because the punters who have the money to buy the vehicles can see the lower costs of fuelling (+ lots of other benefits). Haulage companies are already making the same choices and rejecting H2 in favour of EV.  In any case hydrogen will be needed for grid storage, so will still have a 'cost' attached.

Netexporter

I think green hydrogen should be reserved for decarbonising industrial processes, such as steel-making.

Having more EVs will be a fantastic distributed storage resource, once bi-directional charging becomes A Thing. Imagine all those cars that sit idle for 90+% of the time, helping the grid out.

Martyn1981

Also green H2 for fertilizer production. Ideally H2 needs to be produced near the demand source, which could work well for steel, fertlizer etc, but may be very tricky for transport, since it's a pig to transport. Even a max weight artic with a tube trailer will only carry about 500kg of H2, perhaps enough for 70(ish) cars. So the trucks themselves, will have a massive impact on the viability of H2, both their energy consumption, and the costs of truck and driver.

So H2 for on-site or near site use makes sense, with on-site storage for large scale / long duration storage, but transport has problems.

Ideally, the hope is to produce H2 locally at fueling stations, but that's questionable too, since they will need expensive electrolysers, which is a huge CAPEX investment, so if they sit around unused a lot of the time, waiting for cheap leccy (RE excess), their economics collapse.

I'm also getting a headache trying to work out if there will be a lot of super cheap / zero cost leccy for the H2, for HFCV's. I can totally see that as RE peaks, prices will fall. At that point intraday storage (such as batteries) will step in, and at that point, I assume BEV's using smart chargers and TOU will be part of that storage. Perhaps folk will plug-in to chargers, with settings to not charge (if the vehicle has enough), but if prices fall low enough, then the car will 'fill its boots' on cheap rate.

This is where it gets interesting - once all of the intraday storage is full, then we have the potential for longer duration storage, such as H2 (or CAES etc). But how cheap does the H2 have to get, to cover the 3x efficiency issue, and the large CAPEX costs of the additional equipment? Now, theoretically, the price of leccy could go to zero, or negative, as we see happen. But that includes less flexible generation such as nuclear, and also steam turbines (for gas and coal (and nuclear)) where temps need to be maintained for increased demand in the near future.

What happens when wind is the primary source of leccy, during windy peaks? Some hydro and bio-energy will be able to demand follow, and reduce generation, so will the wind keep generating as prices approach zero? I'm guessing and theorizing, but I assume that wind generators, able to reduce generation very quickly (minutes, possibly seconds), would simply reduce generation as the wholesale price approaches a given minimum, perhaps their OPEX costs. I'm sure this will be a very low figure, but if not negative, then can the H2 for HFCV's ever be cost competitive with BEV's, assuming of course, that the BEV's can't also be charged on negative priced leccy - in the longer term.

Just guessing, but I'd assume that PV generation could go almost to zero, since it has such low OPEX.

No idea if this makes any sense, and I'm not saying that leccy prices won't continue to go negative at times, but I'm not sure why it would persist long term, if the generation sources can respond in real time to wholesale prices. But my dodgy ponderings also depend quite a bit, on how much gas we currently need to keep running, I'm not sure what the minimum now is, possibly 3(ish) GW's. Batts (via inverters) will be able to offer the frequency stability of spinning reserve (the massive inertia of the steam turbines) in the near future, via virtual machine mode, so that may impact things too.

EricMears

Martyn1981 said:

Hi Eric, I don't know if this helps, but a non-Tesla friend has signed up for Tesla superchargers. When they were costing ~40p/kWh for Tesla's, he paid 53p. Now I see the prices have dropped, and vary from 35p to 37p* on the ones I just clicked on, so perhaps 50p(ish) for non-Tesla's(?), but don't quote me on that.

Thinking about it, do you have a Leaf, as I've no idea if there's a way for you to use them.

*But around 47p peak, typically around 4pm to 8pm.

I used to have a Leaf but changed to an Ioniq earlier this year (it's in sig block) so could probably use a Tesla public charger.  However,  I charge away from home so seldom that it's not really worth signing up to any other networks (do Tesla have a subscription ?).  Electroverse is very convenient (& sub-free) as any charging costs just get added to home import bill ant there's always some sort of discount from PAYG price.

Netexporter

 (do Tesla have a subscription ?)

I think you can pay "cash" with the new V4 chargers that are being rolled out at the moment.

Martyn1981

EricMears said:

Martyn1981 said:

Hi Eric, I don't know if this helps, but a non-Tesla friend has signed up for Tesla superchargers. When they were costing ~40p/kWh for Tesla's, he paid 53p. Now I see the prices have dropped, and vary from 35p to 37p* on the ones I just clicked on, so perhaps 50p(ish) for non-Tesla's(?), but don't quote me on that.

Thinking about it, do you have a Leaf, as I've no idea if there's a way for you to use them.

*But around 47p peak, typically around 4pm to 8pm.

I used to have a Leaf but changed to an Ioniq earlier this year (it's in sig block) so could probably use a Tesla public charger.  However,  I charge away from home so seldom that it's not really worth signing up to any other networks (do Tesla have a subscription ?).  Electroverse is very convenient (& sub-free) as any charging costs just get added to home import bill ant there's always some sort of discount from PAYG price.

Ah yes, I see, the Tron car. Neighbour has one, and the looks have really grown on me.

I'll ask my friend for the details about Tesla charger use, but obviously it will depend if the open ones are on routes for you, as I think there are only about 20(ish) so far*. I think I heard back when it was announced that there were to be two options - a monthly subscription, with a lower charge rate, or no sub and a higher charge rate, but all of that may have changed.

As Netexporter says, the new V4's (still very rare) have a payment device, but for now you would still have to use the Tesla app (which is easy), so that you can be charged, with an account set up. For Tesla's you don't actually need to do anything, just reversing up to the charger involves an electronic handshake, so the button on the charger nozzle, actually opens your charge port. Plug in, and off it goes. So non-Tesla, I assume you use the app to activate.

Another benefit, is that for Tesla's, you are charged based on the kWh's that go into the battery, not the gross energy, so hopefully the same for non-Tesla's.**

But, as per all non-domestic chargers, the leccy has a 20% VAT rate, not 5%, so that's another reason why public chargers cost more.

*Click on 'Find us' and check the 'superchargers open to non-Tesla's'.

**Edit - Actually, thinking about it, that's probably wrong. Tesla SC's have access to the onboard computer, for battery charge info, but presumably they won't have that for no-Tesla's, so the energy may be charged gross(?).

JKenH

Netexporter said:

I think green hydrogen should be reserved for decarbonising industrial processes, such as steel-making.

Having more EVs will be a fantastic distributed storage resource, once bi-directional charging becomes A Thing. Imagine all those cars that sit idle for 90+% of the time, helping the grid out.

Indeed it could as this article explains - a potential for 20GW by 2030 saving a lot of unnecessary overdevelopment of RE as well as the gas mentioned.

Slow introduction of V2G technologies could cost EV drivers up to £6.5 billion on energy bills, says ECIU

By 2030, V2G could potentially provide 20GW of power, replacing 20 gas power plants at times of peak demand in winter, the ECIU said.

https://www.current-news.co.uk/slow-introduction-of-v2g-technologies-could-cost-ev-drivers-up-to-6-5-billion-on-energy-bills-says-eciu/

I was a big fan of the V2G/V2H concept and in fact started a thread devoted to it. It was one of the reasons I chose a Nissan Leaf. My son was also keen and was on a trial for the Quasar Wallbox. (The trial he was on is over and he now uses it as a dumb charger.) @Michaels I believe has one of the few up and running V2G setups off trial I believe there have been quite a few trials but commercial roll out is hopelessly slow.

The cost of the chargers is very high. I think the Quasar was over £4K. AFAIAW it only works with Chademo and perhaps that is holding it back its rollmout. I believe for @Michaels it works well but many other V2G trial lists sold their chargers soon after the trials ended as they were buggy. Since the Quasar trial finished manufacturer support is close to non existent. 

I believe there are also some technical issues with V2G relating to “reactive power” but not being an electrician I don’t understand any of that. 

So, yes, it’s one of those great ideas which somehow falls down in the implementation. 

Edit: link to the V2G/V2H thread I started
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6070581/v2h-and-v2g

1961Nick

orrery said:

1961Nick said:

 I guess that if the Government does eventually pull it's finger out regarding the current CFD impasse & wind capacity does reach 50GW, then there will be enough spare overnight capacity to produce hydrogen cheaply & the relative inefficiency of a FCEV compared to a BEV won't matter.

Why so? Don't forget that EVs will also benefit from power surpluses. Hydrogen will always have a 'floor' price that relates to generation and compression/refrigeration costs, transport costs etc that even in the case where leccy is free, H2 will still be relatively unattractive. EVs are successful because the punters who have the money to buy the vehicles can see the lower costs of fuelling (+ lots of other benefits). Haulage companies are already making the same choices and rejecting H2 in favour of EV.  In any case hydrogen will be needed for grid storage, so will still have a 'cost' attached.

If the electricity is essentially free, then that same electricity is used for compression, refrigeration & transport. A FCEV will still use 4x as much energy as a BEV, but if the calculation is close to 4x nothing then the FCEV becomes viable. This would all depend on getting to 50GW, not having the infrastructure to distribute it, not having a willing export market & not having long term storage facilities for any hydrogen produced. 

Netexporter

So, yes, it’s one of those great ideas which somehow falls down in the implementation.

I think the biggest problem is the number of parties involved. Grid companies throughout the world, governments, car makers, energy suppliers... to a list as long as your arm.

It's probably a miracle it has got as far as it has. I have a feeling things are largely going to standardise around Tesla standards. A number of car makers have agreed to go over the Tesla type connectors in North America and BP have placed a very large order for Tesla-built superchargers for their Pulse charging outlets, again, initially in North America.

I fear that Chademo will become the Betamax of bi-directionality.