Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Exiled_Tyke

Given some of the extremely silly stories the anti-EV squad have been putting out I'm far more inclined to accept most of the arguments presented here.  And let's not forget that a lot of the stories they are debunking are from the Mail which is known to have pretty much zero journalistic integrity and even managed to get itself discredited by wikapedia for being unreliable.  I enjoyed the comment about VW making doubtful claims. It reminded me that on one occasion having driven 250 miles my old Audi reported 63miles to the gallon.  I topped up with almost exactly 20litres of diesel and calculated that this equated to 56.8 miles to the gallon.  

Aso the question are we allowed to post jingoistic articles or not. Well when they are of this quality I would say, yes of course, after all this is a thread celebrating EVs.  

JKenH

Exiled_Tyke said:

Given some of the extremely silly stories the anti-EV squad have been putting out I'm far more inclined to accept most of the arguments presented here.  And let's not forget that a lot of the stories they are debunking are from the Mail which is known to have pretty much zero journalistic integrity and even managed to get itself discredited by wikapedia for being unreliable.  I enjoyed the comment about VW making doubtful claims. It reminded me that on one occasion having driven 250 miles my old Audi reported 63miles to the gallon.  I topped up with almost exactly 20litres of diesel and calculated that this equated to 56.8 miles to the gallon.  

Aso the question are we allowed to post jingoistic articles or not. Well when they are of this quality I would say, yes of course, after all this is a thread celebrating EVs.  

Interesting you should mention your Audi doing 56.8mpg. The source quoted by Carbon Brief in the fact check on running costs, Katy Duke, uses 36mpg for an average petrol car to arrive at a cost of 19.8p per mile (17.2p/mile for diesel) and compares this with a rate of 2.1p/mile for overnight EV charging, 7.3p for daytime charging and a high of 18.3p for public charging. The 2.1p/mile figure is based on an Ioniq with economy of 5.5p/mile - which, if intended as a year round average, sounds fanciful. The 18.3p/mile calculated for public charging is based on a Kia Soul achieving 4.2 mpk also optimistic all year round. No allowance is made by Ms Evans in her calculations for charging losses which in my experience might typically be 15%. 

It seems Ms Duke has taken very optimistic consumption figures for her EV case, choosing the Ioniq which is probably the most efficient EV around, and compared this with a somewhat pessimistic average petrol car so even in the “worst” case scenario for an EV it comes out cheaper than the “average” petrol car.  Ms Duke has also quoted some figures for an Audi e-Tron of 2.4 mpk. Real world figures for an Audi Q5 petrol equivalent are about 40-43mpg according to Parkers. (Official emissions for this model are as low as 164g/km and fuel economy is up to 44.8mpg That gives the car a range of up to 640 miles if you can achieve this. We managed between 40-43mpg during our time with the 40 TDI, which is still enough for over 500 miles per tank. https://www.parkers.co.uk/audi/q5/review/mpg-running-costs/ ) 40mpg would work out at 17.8p/mile compared to 28.75p or 32p/mile charging an e-Tron at a public charger (no allowance made for charging losses.) Your old diesel returning 56.8mpg would cost 12.8p per mile. 

I take your point about this being a thread celebrating EVs. The thread, though, concentrating as it does on promoting positive EV stories, isn’t much use to anyone considering buying an EV as he/she may find after purchasing one it doesn’t live up to expectations. More disappointment, more negative EV stories for the Daily Mail. 

Exiled_Tyke

Well the 56mpg was not the usual. It was a long motorway and A round journey most of which was done at around 50-60mph ( I know unusual!).  Most of the time it was doing mid 30s I'd say so at today's prices around 19-20p per mile.  My current brick of an SUV is costing me 2.6p per mile for comparison and of course less than this when there is excess sun available. 

JKenH

Exiled_Tyke said:

Well the 56mpg was not the usual. It was a long motorway and A round journey most of which was done at around 50-60mph ( I know unusual!).  Most of the time it was doing mid 30s I'd say.  My current brick of an SUV is costing me 2.6p per mile for comparison and of course less than this when there is excess sun available. 

I don’t know which tariff you are on but on IO it is better to export your solar. Charging your EV on solar when on the IO tariff costs 15p/kWh. Even on Go it costs 8p/kWh in foregone export. 

Exiled_Tyke

JKenH said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

Well the 56mpg was not the usual. It was a long motorway and A round journey most of which was done at around 50-60mph ( I know unusual!).  Most of the time it was doing mid 30s I'd say.  My current brick of an SUV is costing me 2.6p per mile for comparison and of course less than this when there is excess sun available. 

I don’t know which tariff you are on but on IO it is better to export your solar. Charging your EV on solar when on the IO tariff costs 15p/kWh. Even on Go it costs 8p/kWh in foregone export. 

As I've mentioned before, with the amount of solar I'm exporting overall I'm currently better off taking deemed export with my FIT. If prices fall this will work further in my favour. At some point in the future when prices do increase I may better off changing over but I'm a way off that at the moment. 

1961Nick

Here are some actual numbers for comparable cars:

Tesla Model 3 Performance (29,800 miles): 2.42p/mile (IO @ 7.5p/kWh)
BMW 435d Gran Coupe ( 112,000 miles): 21.14p/mile (adjusted for diesel @ £1.70/litre)

(These are the numbers from the pump/meter not optimistic on board computers.) 

Martyn1981

1961Nick said:

Here are some actual numbers for comparable cars:

Tesla Model 3 Performance (29,800 miles): 2.42p/mile (IO @ 7.5p/kWh)
BMW 435d Gran Coupe ( 112,000 miles): 21.14p/mile (adjusted for diesel @ £1.70/litre)

(These are the numbers from the pump/meter not optimistic on board computers.) 

Have to say, that those numbers have shocked me somewhat. They make complete sense, but seeing them side by side (so to speak) is an eye opener.

For me and particularly the G&E angle, low(er) leccy prices need to be available to most folk, so that will involve street charging, perhaps akin to something like the Trojan model of covering whole streets and avoiding any parking restrictions. And will need to offer TOU rates too.

But even swapping your 7.5p rate for a high theoretical night rate of 20p*, I still make that 6.45p/mile, or about 120mpg for the diesel to match. Plus, of course, we need more BEV's at the cheaper end, but that's going to happen, especially when small/cheap BEV's can be built and sold profitably.


*Perhaps too high, looking forward to when the invasion of Ukraine and subsequent spike in FF prices eases, and leccy prices go back down. But seems like a reasonable figure for now for cheaper rate charging.

Martyn1981

Info from UK Gov, which looks promising:

New laws to make charging an electric vehicle easier and quicker

• new laws passed to make charging an electric vehicle easier, quicker and more reliable

• drivers will have access transparent, easy-to-compare pricing information, simpler payment methods and more reliable chargepoints

• follows the commitments in the government’s Plan for Drivers to put drivers back in the driving seat and boost chargepoint infrastructure ahead of the 2035 zero emission vehicle goal

Millions of electric vehicle (EV) drivers will benefit from easier and more reliable public charging thanks to new laws approved by MPs last night (24 October 2023).

New regulations will ensure that prices across chargepoints are transparent and easy to compare and that a large proportion of new public chargepoints have contactless payment options.

Providers will also be required to open up their data, so drivers can easily find an available chargepoint that meets their needs. It will open up data for apps, online maps and in-vehicle software, making it easier for drivers to locate chargepoints, check their charging speeds and determine whether they are working and available for use.

These measures come as the country reaches record levels of public charging infrastructure, with numbers growing 42% year on year.

EricMears

Martyn1981 said:

Info from UK Gov, which looks promising:

New laws to make charging an electric vehicle easier and quicker

• new laws passed to make charging an electric vehicle easier, quicker and more reliable

But there's nothing there to suggest it might get cheaper !

Luckily,  I seldom have to charge away from home so majority of my charging is done at 7.5ppu giving <2.5ppm but it comes as rather a shock when I need a top-up on a longer trip.  Ionity @61ppu seems to be a 'best buy' (thankyou Octopus !) but 80+ppu is often offered -  i.e.  more than 10 times my home cost.

Comparison is often made of the premium price of ICE fuel on a motorway but they're never 10x the price at a supermarket (usually less than a 20% uplift).  Of course there's a huge cost in providing a rapid charger but it's not exactly cheap to install tanks and pumps either.

Petriix

I'm finding it pretty challenging to keep track of the actual cost of charging my car. I can add up the total price per kWh of each charging session but that misses some key details:

• Solar charging is ostensibly 'free' but I also count this as a 'saving' towards the ROI from my solar install (which cost £4k). It can't be both.
• When charging from solar, there's often a small amount coming from the grid which, at worst, makes the cost similar to my overnight tariff. 
• I'm on deemed exports but I'd probably save more if I switched to metered SEG payments and just exported everything.
• I spent around £50 on peak rate charging last winter, but most of this was during the in-day adjustment period for the saving sessions which earned me over £200.
• Rapid charging is expensive, but I've had about £150 in bonus credit through Instavolt and Electroverse referrals meaning I've hardly paid a penny in reality.

It's all far too complicated to calculate a true per-mile figure. I just estimate about 2p per mile overall but I suspect it's less.