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EVandPV

NIO and Shell sign agreement for battery swap stations

Chinese EV brand and energy giant collaborate to bring battery charging and swapping stations to Europe from next year

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nio/356687/nio-and-shell-sign-agreement-battery-swap-stations

Solarchaser

Swan_Valley said:

Work starts on the UK’s largest public electric vehicle charging hub at Redbridge Park & Ride

"The Oxford Superhub, which is being developed by Pivot Power, part of EDF Renewables, and Oxford City Council, as part of Energy Superhub Oxford (ESO), will be located at Redbridge Park & Ride and will see the installation of 38 fast and ultra-rapid chargers – making it the UK’s largest public EV charging hub."

Since the Stirling hub that's been open for at least 6 months (that I've used it) has 64 chargers, id say that claim is false.
There are only 24 fast and rapid chargers though, so the Oxford hub will have the most of that type

https://stirling.gov.uk/news/2021/june-2021/low-carbon-transport-hub-with-132-solar-panels-sparks-into-life-in-stirling/

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

Edit: summary off the results of the Autocar test by Inside EVs

The list is as follows:

 

1. Hyundai Kona Electric, 259 miles (258 EPA miles)

2. Jaguar I-Pace, 253 miles (234 EPA miles)

2. Kia Niro EV, 253 miles (239 EPA miles)

4. Tesla Model 3 Performance, 239 miles (299 EPA miles)

5. Tesla Model X P100D, 233 miles (289 EPA miles)

6. Nissan LEAF e+, 217 miles (226 EPA miles)

7. Mercedes-Benz EQC, 208 miles (259 WLTP miles - anticipated 220 EPA miles)

8. Tesla Model S 75kWh, 204 miles (259 EPA miles)

9. Audi e-tron, 196 miles (204 EPA miles)

10. Renault ZOE R135, 192 miles (238 WLTP miles)

11. Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus, 181 miles (250 EPA miles)

12. BMW i3 120Ah, 165 miles (153 EPA miles)

JKenH said:

One of the possible explanations for Tesla’s relatively poor performance in the What Car test was I believe that Teslas are optimised for “Highway” driving  (motorways to you and me) 

These articles seem somewhat selective in a significant manner to provide an anti-Tesla narrative.  Now I don't have any EV and certainly no reason to favour any company over another but, as a prospective consumer, I would expect to see fair and objective reporting to allow proper comparison.

Is that achieved with these articles comparing a Kona EV (which is a fairly sedate family hatchback, and not sure which edition of the vehicle is included) but then for the TM3 only the Performance and SR versions are included in the assessment? 
That seems like listing a Focus Ecoboost and then a BMW M2 Competition and then saying the BMW 2-Series is not very fuel efficient, whereas a more regular 2-Series is likely comparable to the equivalent Focus.
Surely, any independent review and reporting of "best" EV's when range is considered as the criteria of "best" must take the most long-range version of any model to be anywhere near comparable.

I am also surprised not to see the MG5 LR making the list.  Perhaps the research was undertaken before the latest versions of the MG5 were launched.

The list above came from this article by Inside EVs who reported the findings of Autocar and What car.  https://insideevs.com/news/407807/eletric-car-real-world-range-tested/

InsideEVs aren’t generally regarded as anti Tesla.

Neither is What Car who made the Tesla M3 their large electric car of the year - see below

https://www.whatcar.com/news/car-of-the-year-awards-2021-large-electric-car-of-the-year/n22440

The article was not so much about which car had the best range but rather how it compared to official figures. It wasn’t only Tesla that was being compared, a lot of other luxury EVs were included. Cost wise the Tesla M3SR isn’t that far removed from the Kona and e-Niro 64kw models or at least it wasn’t when the article was written.

The article dates back to April 2020 so no surprise the MG5 LR isn’t included. Neither is the VWiD3.

Edit: I have struggled to find 2020 prices for the Kona and M3SR but this post on a forum from someone who has owned both suggests they were £38k and£40k respectively. 

Coincidentally the post also refers to charging of the Tesla and confirms that Tesla BMS while speeding up charging can also waste energy. 

“ EG,. On a trip navigate via a supercharger. The car will start to preheat the battery 20 mins before getting to the charger to get the battery to 50c for optimum charging speed. This can easily burn 5kw (10% of the battery). Then as soon as you start charging the battery is hot so it has to start calling it using energy again. So on a 10-80% charging session you will save about 5 mins but burn an extra 7 to 8kw of power to optimise the charging.”
https://www.speakev.com/threads/tesla-model-3-sr-vs-kona-premium-se-at-4-months-and-10k-miles.156036/

This is a fact of life with Teslas but how often do you see it referred to?

I’m not having a go at Tesla - if I was going to spend £40k on an EV I can’t think of a better alternative - but on a forum I think both good and bad points should be addressed. I own a Leaf and love it but if it isn’t very efficient compared to say a Hyundai Ionic, I will say so.

Edit2:

I came across this post from a TM3SR owner: 

“ I have done several long trips (300 miles) where I have found that the actual 100%-0% range is about 200 miles in summer and about 160 miles in winter with the heating on / heated seats on etc..

For reference the WLTP range of the car is 254 miles (current model year is a little higher). As we know this is not representative of real-world ‘fuel economy’ as is the case for all other vehicle types.

Non-driving battery usage - I've noticed that because I do a lot of short trips, I use quite a bit of energy pre-heating the car (and pre-cooling in summer). If I couldn't charge at home, this would be quite impactful as it uses up “range” without going anywhere.”


https://overclockers.co.uk/forums/threads/16-months-living-with-an-ev-my-honest-experience.18923228/

CKhalvashi

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

Edit: summary off the results of the Autocar test by Inside EVs

The list is as follows:

 

1. Hyundai Kona Electric, 259 miles (258 EPA miles)

2. Jaguar I-Pace, 253 miles (234 EPA miles)

2. Kia Niro EV, 253 miles (239 EPA miles)

4. Tesla Model 3 Performance, 239 miles (299 EPA miles)

5. Tesla Model X P100D, 233 miles (289 EPA miles)

6. Nissan LEAF e+, 217 miles (226 EPA miles)

7. Mercedes-Benz EQC, 208 miles (259 WLTP miles - anticipated 220 EPA miles)

8. Tesla Model S 75kWh, 204 miles (259 EPA miles)

9. Audi e-tron, 196 miles (204 EPA miles)

10. Renault ZOE R135, 192 miles (238 WLTP miles)

11. Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus, 181 miles (250 EPA miles)

12. BMW i3 120Ah, 165 miles (153 EPA miles)

JKenH said:

One of the possible explanations for Tesla’s relatively poor performance in the What Car test was I believe that Teslas are optimised for “Highway” driving  (motorways to you and me) 

These articles seem somewhat selective in a significant manner to provide an anti-Tesla narrative.  Now I don't have any EV and certainly no reason to favour any company over another but, as a prospective consumer, I would expect to see fair and objective reporting to allow proper comparison.

Is that achieved with these articles comparing a Kona EV (which is a fairly sedate family hatchback, and not sure which edition of the vehicle is included) but then for the TM3 only the Performance and SR versions are included in the assessment? 
That seems like listing a Focus Ecoboost and then a BMW M2 Competition and then saying the BMW 2-Series is not very fuel efficient, whereas a more regular 2-Series is likely comparable to the equivalent Focus.
Surely, any independent review and reporting of "best" EV's when range is considered as the criteria of "best" must take the most long-range version of any model to be anywhere near comparable.

I am also surprised not to see the MG5 LR making the list.  Perhaps the research was undertaken before the latest versions of the MG5 were launched.

At the same or similar price point though, the TM3SR could be considered similar to the Kona LR.

The MG5 is one of the best value for money cars out there, and with schemes like the Oxford one mentioned above, could be very appealing for what we would look to use them for.

michaels

JKenH said:

michaels said:

Our leaf is older (a 15 24kwh) - we tend to get a year round average indicated miles per kwh of 4 but I have no idea of the accuracy of this.  The v2g charger is chademo which puts the car at quite a high level of 'standby' even when it is neither charging nor discharging so we try not to leave it switched on in the day (plug it in in the evening it discharges, leave it plugged in and it is 'full' at our set time in the morning, it chooses when to charge - but these 12 odd hours probably suffer 1kwh of standby losses.

I think we can excuse the standby losses as they are incurred for the benefit of V2G and not really part of owning the car. I noted before the good mpk you get. What’s your use profile like? When I first got a Leaf I used to try and squeeze the last mile out of every KWh but now I only tend to do that on long trips. Driving around locally I tend to drive the car like an ICEv (70 on dual carriageways and motorways etc) and enjoy the torque but still make the most of the regen making full use of the ePedal. That means I don’t lift off quite as early as I would when trying to stretch the mileage.

Perhaps it’s because I like numbers and also have a Zappi (shows kWh used to 2 decimal places) and LeafSpy that I pay so much attention to efficiency. From an economics point of view charging on Go Faster it’s neither here nor there whether I get 3 or 4mpk but of course it does come into play on a long run when I do change my driving style to minimise charging stops. 

As far as the point Mart made about the Ioniq, I agree that Hyundai/Kia seem to be the kings of efficiency. I saw someone a while back post an indicated 6+ mpk from an e-Niro on Facebook which gave a theoretical range of 350 miles. I asked if it really did translate into that in practice and apparently some people have done over 350 miles on a charge!

As far as battery degradation is concerned, it is still happening. My son’s 2017 30kwh Leaf is down to 81% battery state of health (one battery bar gone) at just 30,000 miles. It has had a gentle life charging with not that many rapids. People are reporting losing more than 4bars (dropping below 70%) and Nissan are doing a BMS reset to restore the bars rather than swapping batteries. 

My 40kwh Leaf (20 months old) is at 93% SoH according to LeafSpy but the majority of that drop occurred in the first 12 months. I could still get 160 miles on a good day (100 on a bad day) and haven’t really noticed any drop off in range. The weather on the day is a bigger factor. Tesla battery health seems good but it is too early to say how the newer BEV manufacturers will fare. 

My wife now uses the Leaf for 90% of her journeys, only using the Picanto if her destination has really tight parking (or when she wants to take her bike). She likes driving the Leaf but insists her next car will still be a petrol Picanto. She is going to buy the  last one ever made, she says. 

I think all the 30s got or should have had a 'BMS recalibration' - not sure if this was just presentational or if the batteries were actually showing more degradation than they had actually suffered.

Our 24kwh leaf just lost its first bar at 61k - 6.5 years which seems to be about par for the Sunderland built ones.  Our mileage is all around town - we very rarely get to roads with a higher limit than 40 and if we are on a slightly longer journey do tend to drive pretty conservatively to avoid any danger of having to stop for a charge.  Tomorrow we are off to NW5 for a kids football match, we will travel a slightly shorter but slower route to the second nearest motorway junction, costs about a minute but saves a couple of miles and is on slower roads so saves a few percent of battery.  We will drop something off after the match so total trip will be about 50 miles and we will probably get back at about 30% battery, speeding up on the way home once we are sure we have plenty in reserve....

JKenH

Are Electric cars less efficient in winter?

I often see (and myself make) the comment that the fuel consumption of electric cars is greater in winter but is that actually the case? If I avoid using the heating will I see the same mpk (miles/kWh) in winter as summer? Yes the range will drop in my Leaf as it doesn’t  have a battery heater but the number of miles I get from each kWh shouldn’t yet it seems to. 

What I have noticed in most journeys (summer or winter) is that as my journey progresses the mpk displayed improves. Often at the end of the first mile it is around 2 mpk but then it creeps up. Does the transmission fluid warming up have that much impact? (I know from time spent with race cars on dynos that you have to not only get the engine warm but also the gearbox and diff oil to get the best performance but does cold transmission oil drag the efficiency down by as much as a third? 

My car lives in a well insulated attached garage usually with a door open adjacent to the boiler room so even in cold weather the temperature rarely drops into single figures.

When cold, tyres should have less rolling resistance (assuming the same pressures have been set the same cold) so that should improve efficiency and the cold air/ roads should stop them getting hot and sapping power as they might in hot weather.

The battery warms up as the car is driven which should deliver more energy but that shouldn’t have any effect on mpk.

Any thoughts from the engineers out there?

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

I am also surprised not to see the MG5 LR making the list.  Perhaps the research was undertaken before the latest versions of the MG5 were launched.

Bit of a digression, but I saw this article and thought about your comment re MG, and others who (like me) seem to think they are a great value for money offering. Well, MG's seem to sell well in Australia, which is 'almost' a local market for China, and they are going to roll out destination chargers which can help to encourage custom for shops/businesses, in this case hotels, and also of course support the rollout and adoption of BEV's.

MG Australia Gets It: If You Charge It, They Will Come

To encourage plugin uptake, MG plans to donate 3000 chargers to 1000 regional motels across the country, starting in NSW and expanding across regional Australia and even across the ditch to New Zealand. MG Australia CEO Peter Ciao said “the chargers will be installed at three-star hotels and motels in regional and rural Australia to encourage people to drive EVs from the cities.”

Interested potential customers can reach out to MG via its mgelectric.com.au website. MG will provide 7kW AC wall boxes based on the Aurora charge hub. These are best suited to overnight charging and will be accessible to all plugin models, not just MGs. Hopefully this will not only increase EV sales but also support local businesses across Australia, including hotels and resorts. Installation should commence over the next 6–12 months.

Solarchaser

Hi Ken I've always attributed it to the same thing as the Tesla,  the heaters are on early in your journey to bring the cabin up to temp, and then as you progress they require less to maintain temp than to get there, also in the winter you use your headlights more, the rain offers more rolling resistance and window wipers need electricity too, your fans will be on stronger, and perhaps a demister (maybe ac to demist better) too to stop windows fogging up.  In an ice car all of this is covered by waste products from the engine, heat from combustion and electricity from an alternator running because the engine is running.

I dont believe the batteries offer less capacity,  as energy cannot simply dissappear,  it can only be that more energy is required by the car to complete its functions.

NigeWick

These articles seem somewhat selective in a significant manner to provide an anti-Tesla narrative.  Now I don't have any EV and certainly no reason to favour any company over another but, as a prospective consumer, I would expect to see fair and objective reporting to allow proper comparison.

I had a 64kWh Kona. At 70mph in 28F freezing fog it would do just over 200 miles with heating & aircon on. I reckon to get about 260ish out of my TM3LR under similar circumstances.

JKenH

Solarchaser said:

Hi Ken I've always attributed it to the same thing as the Tesla,  the heaters are on early in your journey to bring the cabin up to temp, and then as you progress they require less to maintain temp than to get there, also in the winter you use your headlights more, the rain offers more rolling resistance and window wipers need electricity too, your fans will be on stronger, and perhaps a demister (maybe ac to demist better) too to stop windows fogging up.  In an ice car all of this is covered by waste products from the engine, heat from combustion and electricity from an alternator running because the engine is running.

I dont believe the batteries offer less capacity,  as energy cannot simply dissappear,  it can only be that more energy is required by the car to complete its functions.

Even in nice weather without heaters or aircon, lights or wipers on, on I find the start of a journey to have quite low mpk improving as the miles go on. Unlike the Tesla, with the Leaf not a lot is going on in the background sapping power unless you switch it on. Starting off from a warm garage I don’t bother with heating unless it is really cold weather but At say 10C external temps I will still get less efficiency than at 25C. I have only ever seen high 4s mpk in summer and I can’t really understand why that should be so. Because so little else is going on - no battery heating then the Leaf should lose less in efficiency but it doesn’t seem to be, particularly by comparison to @NigeWick’s experience in cold weather with his Tesla M3LR. 

When you are next out in your Leaf perhaps try it without heating aircon on to see how the mpk slowly builds up.