Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

shinytop

JKenH said:

UK EV charging firms raise prices as energy crisis bites

From 1 December, new prices will apply across the BP Pulse network. The cost per kWh of energy for subscribers has risen from 23p to 32p for the firm's standard public chargers (AC 43kW/DC 50kW) and from 29p to 38p for registered users. 

The firm's fastest (150kW) devices will now cost 38p per kWh subscribers, 44p for registered users and 50p for pay-as-you-go users, while the slower 7kW units cost from 28p per kWh. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business-environment-and-energy/uk-ev-charging-firms-raise-prices-energy-crisis-bites

I'm sure someone here has done the sums but what is the equivalent p/kWh for an average EV vs a comparable petrol car at, say, 40mpg? 

QrizB

shinytop said:

JKenH said:

UK EV charging firms raise prices as energy crisis bites

From 1 December, new prices will apply across the BP Pulse network. The cost per kWh of energy for subscribers has risen from 23p to 32p for the firm's standard public chargers (AC 43kW/DC 50kW) and from 29p to 38p for registered users. 

The firm's fastest (150kW) devices will now cost 38p per kWh subscribers, 44p for registered users and 50p for pay-as-you-go users, while the slower 7kW units cost from 28p per kWh. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business-environment-and-energy/uk-ev-charging-firms-raise-prices-energy-crisis-bites

I'm sure someone here has done the sums but what is the equivalent p/kWh for an average EV vs a comparable petrol car at, say, 40mpg? 

My Fiat Panda gets around 45mpg and is currently costing almost 15p/mile in petrol. At the highest PAYG rate quoted of 50p/kWh, and a fairly pessimistic efficiency of 3miles/kWh, that's 17p/mile. (At the lowest quoted subscriber rate of 23p/kWh, that's 8p/mile.)

Coastalwatch

QrizB said:

shinytop said:

JKenH said:

UK EV charging firms raise prices as energy crisis bites

From 1 December, new prices will apply across the BP Pulse network. The cost per kWh of energy for subscribers has risen from 23p to 32p for the firm's standard public chargers (AC 43kW/DC 50kW) and from 29p to 38p for registered users. 

The firm's fastest (150kW) devices will now cost 38p per kWh subscribers, 44p for registered users and 50p for pay-as-you-go users, while the slower 7kW units cost from 28p per kWh. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business-environment-and-energy/uk-ev-charging-firms-raise-prices-energy-crisis-bites

I'm sure someone here has done the sums but what is the equivalent p/kWh for an average EV vs a comparable petrol car at, say, 40mpg? 

My Fiat Panda gets around 45mpg and is currently costing almost 15p/mile in petrol. At the highest PAYG rate quoted of 50p/kWh, and a fairly pessimistic efficiency of 3miles/kWh, that's 17p/mile. (At the lowest quoted subscriber rate of 23p/kWh, that's 8p/mile.)

Certainly the comparisons appear to be levelling out which I've no problem with as, in terms of economics, it's only right that prices reflect the true market cost.

With 90% of EV charging carried out at home, 7% at destination and only 3% en route then the above figures barely reflect true costs.

For instance, at home current leccy rate circa 15p/kWh which at 3m/kWh  works out at 5p/mile. On Octopus Go, which is naturally our preferrred choice when the sun isn't shining and we have to resort to charging from the grid it is @5.5p/kWh or 1.833p/mile.

Over the 19.125k miles clocked up to date the total cost of charging has been £299.86 or 1.56789p/mile.

Environmentally of course, where cleaner alternatives exist, the case for ICE vehicles simply melt away.

A bit like the ice caps!

Martyn1981

Here's an article on 'Gridtractor', which is OK, but if you want a quick idea, then the 60s animation under 'How it Works' on the companies website gives all the basics.

Gridtractor Launches Fleet Electrification For Farmers

There is an intersection of agriculture, energy, finance, and technology that will make all the difference in the economy of farmers, and the ecology of our small planet. Gridtractor set its sites on electrifying the world’s fleet of tractors and diesel-powered farm equipment a decade ago. There is now an opportunity to get this transformation rolling.

I recently spoke with David Meyers, CEO of Gridtractor, about this. He has a message (good advice) for all the big manufacturers, the John Deeres of the world: “Don’t repeat the mistakes of the big auto companies. If you had said to GM 10 years ago, when Tesla was playing around, that last week’s market value was coming, they would have rolled on the floor laughing.” (This is referring to Tesla doing what it just did — reaching a trillion dollar market cap). Don’t let small electric tractor manufacturers become the next Tesla when you have the chance now to transform. That’s the message. At the same time, to those smaller companies, such as Monarch Tractor, keep the momentum up.

California is the laboratory for many technological market structures. Yet, farmers everywhere, who are the most independent of folks, will resonate profoundly with the sheer independence of producing their own fuel and saving up to 75% in fuel costs. As infrastructure is a core issue with electric vehicles of all kinds, the big farms are already ahead, because they are pumping water for irrigation. They can set up their timers to use that power capacity for EVs — now is recharging time, now is irrigation time. There it is, all ready to make use of.

EVandPV

GRIDSERVE goes global with the GRIDSERVE Partner Network

GRIDSERVE has launched The GRIDSERVE Partner Network to open up the company’s ‘Sun-To-Wheel Ecosystem’ and deploy its electric vehicle (EV) infrastructure internationally. The ‘Ecosystem’ comprises hybrid solar & battery farms, EV charging infrastructure, and electric vehicle solutions.

Over 100 Electric Forecourts are planned to be built as part of a £1bn+ investment programme. More than 50 additional Electric Hubs, each featuring 6-12x 350kW chargers, are also being built across the UK in a separate £100m+ rollout, with the first site opened at Rugby Services earlier this year and several additional sites now also under construction.

https://www.zap-map.com/gridserve-launches-gridserve-partner-network/

JKenH

Average MPG for Cars UK 2022

The Peugeot iOn is the most efficient electric car in the UK, achieving a remarkable 159 MPGe. The Audi e-tron is the worst of the group but still achieves 93 MPGe, which is nearly 3X better than the average petrol car in the UK.

We calculated the MPGe for all-electric cars specifically available in the UK, including models from BMW, Nissan, Tesla, Mitsubishi, VW, Citroen, Fiat, Hyundai, Renault, Audi and Mercedes.

The table of MPGe throws up a few surprises - see the link below. Guess which manufacturer has 3 cars in the bottom 5.

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/cheap-car-insurance/average-mpg

edit: below is a link to the source from which the data in the article was obtained.

https://www.spritmonitor.de/en/evaluation/most_economic_electric_vehicles.html

Grumpy_chap

shinytop said:

I'm sure someone here has done the sums but what is the equivalent p/kWh for an average EV vs a comparable petrol car 

I did these sums at the end of 2019 ahead of COVID as I was seriously planning to renew my car during 2020 (though glad I didn't get round to it given how things panned out). 

The pence per mile for fuel at that time was roughly equal if comparing ICE vehicle versus EV charged at the work charging points (which were not competitive, but would have been what I'd have needed to use).  I was particularly doing it to assess the MG ZS EV with insufficient range for my regular round-trip commute versus a longer range but more expensive EV option.

I never got any new car then and am not currently doing sufficient mileage to warrant a new car.  That works out well as the increasing choice of EV's that would support the round-trip commute means I'd no longer need to factor in the work-place charging as a regular cost.  Consequently, I'd no longer have any need to repeat this calculation.

I suspect that the increase in EV charge point prices and gasoline prices will mean the answer would remain comparable for the time being.  Partly because the key driving input to both is the same raw product (predominantly) plus competitive drivers don't force lower cost EV charging plus the higher revenue is needed to support the EV charging infrastructure roll-out.  

As time progresses, these parameters will vary and the costs may drift apart.

shinytop

JKenH said:

Average MPG for Cars UK 2022

The Peugeot iOn is the most efficient electric car in the UK, achieving a remarkable 159 MPGe. The Audi e-tron is the worst of the group but still achieves 93 MPGe, which is nearly 3X better than the average petrol car in the UK.

We calculated the MPGe for all-electric cars specifically available in the UK, including models from BMW, Nissan, Tesla, Mitsubishi, VW, Citroen, Fiat, Hyundai, Renault, Audi and Mercedes.

The table of MPGe throws up a few surprises - see the link below. Guess which manufacturer has 3 cars in the bottom 5.

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/cheap-car-insurance/average-mpg

edit: below is a link to the source from which the data in the article was obtained.

https://www.spritmonitor.de/en/evaluation/most_economic_electric_vehicles.html

Is there a simple answer to why some are much better/worse than others? It looks a lot to do with size, although the Ioniq isn't particularly large. The obvious question mark is Tesla; is it that they are they are just the gas-guzzlers of the EV world?  

shinytop

Grumpy_chap said:

shinytop said:

I'm sure someone here has done the sums but what is the equivalent p/kWh for an average EV vs a comparable petrol car 

I did these sums at the end of 2019 ahead of COVID as I was seriously planning to renew my car during 2020 (though glad I didn't get round to it given how things panned out). 

The pence per mile for fuel at that time was roughly equal if comparing ICE vehicle versus EV charged at the work charging points (which were not competitive, but would have been what I'd have needed to use).  I was particularly doing it to assess the MG ZS EV with insufficient range for my regular round-trip commute versus a longer range but more expensive EV option.

I never got any new car then and am not currently doing sufficient mileage to warrant a new car.  That works out well as the increasing choice of EV's that would support the round-trip commute means I'd no longer need to factor in the work-place charging as a regular cost.  Consequently, I'd no longer have any need to repeat this calculation.

I suspect that the increase in EV charge point prices and gasoline prices will mean the answer would remain comparable for the time being.  Partly because the key driving input to both is the same raw product (predominantly) plus competitive drivers don't force lower cost EV charging plus the higher revenue is needed to support the EV charging infrastructure roll-out.  

As time progresses, these parameters will vary and the costs may drift apart.

Yup it looks like EV and ICE are broadly similar in cost for fuel purchased away from home.  I certainly wouldn't want to have to rely on charge points for anything other than an emergency/rarity.  The economic case for my buying an EV now or in the next few years is non existent but I'll probably do it anyway.   

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

Average MPG for Cars UK 2022

The Peugeot iOn is the most efficient electric car in the UK, achieving a remarkable 159 MPGe. The Audi e-tron is the worst of the group but still achieves 93 MPGe, which is nearly 3X better than the average petrol car in the UK.

Thanks for sharing, but what exactly is MPGe?

OK, I get the idea to compare "fuel consumption" for cars with different fuels, but MPG is not the most suitable unit to use. 

It is simply not even a true unit in the case of an EV as there are no "gallons" involved whatsoever and, if there are "something equivalent to gallons" are they equivalent to gallons of diesel or gallons of petrol?  Significant difference in the answer.

To be honest, comparing MPG for an indicator of efficiency between petrol and diesel cars is an anomaly and because it masks the true energy consumption has allowed some "wool to be pulled over the eyes" for quite sometime - marketing people have been able to promote big cars as being as efficient as family cars, when that was not truly the case as a diesel soft-roader may be similar MPG to a petrol family car, but is still consuming more energy.

Rather than journalists falling into the trap of creating some fictitious unit, which is what the MPGe seems to be, the basis should be in the context of energy and distance travelled.  There could be several candidates, but miles / kWh seems a fairly good one that people can understand:

• ICE about 1.5 miles / kWh
• EV about 4 miles / kWh