Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

JKenH

shinytop said:

Grumpy_chap said:

shinytop said:

I'm sure someone here has done the sums but what is the equivalent p/kWh for an average EV vs a comparable petrol car 

I did these sums at the end of 2019 ahead of COVID as I was seriously planning to renew my car during 2020 (though glad I didn't get round to it given how things panned out). 

The pence per mile for fuel at that time was roughly equal if comparing ICE vehicle versus EV charged at the work charging points (which were not competitive, but would have been what I'd have needed to use).  I was particularly doing it to assess the MG ZS EV with insufficient range for my regular round-trip commute versus a longer range but more expensive EV option.

I never got any new car then and am not currently doing sufficient mileage to warrant a new car.  That works out well as the increasing choice of EV's that would support the round-trip commute means I'd no longer need to factor in the work-place charging as a regular cost.  Consequently, I'd no longer have any need to repeat this calculation.

I suspect that the increase in EV charge point prices and gasoline prices will mean the answer would remain comparable for the time being.  Partly because the key driving input to both is the same raw product (predominantly) plus competitive drivers don't force lower cost EV charging plus the higher revenue is needed to support the EV charging infrastructure roll-out.  

As time progresses, these parameters will vary and the costs may drift apart.

Yup it looks like EV and ICE are broadly similar in cost for fuel purchased away from home.  I certainly wouldn't want to have to rely on charge points for anything other than an emergency/rarity.  The economic case for my buying an EV now or in the next few years is non existent but I'll probably do it anyway.   

If it’s any help I love driving my Leaf. If I did all my charging at home it would be perfect. I really like just plugging in in the garage to fill up. Compared to my 2017 Golf 1.6tdi  I probably save around £1000 a year on fuel, maybe £100 a year on servicing and that’s it. That is balanced out by higher depreciation on the Leaf. 

It just all goes wrong when DC public charging is involved. There aren’t enough chargers on motorways (only one at Northampton and Watford Gap on the M1!) and a significant proportion of chargers I have tried to use are out of service. Maybe I just like a predictable easy life and what irritates me won’t be a problem for you. I have though noticed an increasing number of people grumbling on social media about public chargers being out of order and having to queue and probably just as many saying there isn’t a problem if you plan your journey. Take your pick but the grumbles are coming from EV drivers who actually use the public chargers.

Before you take the plunge it is worth joining a Facebook general EV drivers group or one dedicated to the car you are considering. 

JKenH

Electric overtakes petrol as next fuel choice for car buyers

Autovia, parent company of Auto Express, has found evidence that public mass adoption of electric vehicles is on the horizon. The firm is currently conducting a survey, which shows that more car buyers are considering an electric vehicle for their next purchase than a petrol one.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/356689/electric-overtakes-petrol-next-fuel-choice-car-buyers

JKenH

UK: EV Insurance Premiums Fall By Almost £100 A Year

My own experience differs from this headline. I just received my renewal from LV= for the Leaf and the premium has gone up by 25%. They couldn’t offer an explanation when I rang up and asked why.

https://uk.motor1.com/news/550027/electric-car-insurance-premiums-fall/

JKenH

Used EVs selling faster than petrol for first time, Auto Trader finds

The Nissan Leaf (2017 registration) holds the current title of fastest selling used EV in the UK right now, taking an average of just 20 days to leave forecourts. It’s followed into second place by the French electric supermini, the Renault Zoe (2016), which is taking 23 days to sell, which is trailed by the Tesla Model 3 (2021), which is taking 27.

However, it’s the much-maligned diesel that continues to dominate, representing seven of the top 10, including the number one spot with the SEAT Alhambra (2017), which is currently taking an average of just 15 days to sell.

https://www.motorfinanceonline.com/news/used-evs-selling-faster-petrol-first-time-auto-trader/

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

Average MPG for Cars UK 2022

The Peugeot iOn is the most efficient electric car in the UK, achieving a remarkable 159 MPGe. The Audi e-tron is the worst of the group but still achieves 93 MPGe, which is nearly 3X better than the average petrol car in the UK.

Thanks for sharing, but what exactly is MPGe?

OK, I get the idea to compare "fuel consumption" for cars with different fuels, but MPG is not the most suitable unit to use. 

It is simply not even a true unit in the case of an EV as there are no "gallons" involved whatsoever and, if there are "something equivalent to gallons" are they equivalent to gallons of diesel or gallons of petrol?  Significant difference in the answer.

To be honest, comparing MPG for an indicator of efficiency between petrol and diesel cars is an anomaly and because it masks the true energy consumption has allowed some "wool to be pulled over the eyes" for quite sometime - marketing people have been able to promote big cars as being as efficient as family cars, when that was not truly the case as a diesel soft-roader may be similar MPG to a petrol family car, but is still consuming more energy.

Rather than journalists falling into the trap of creating some fictitious unit, which is what the MPGe seems to be, the basis should be in the context of energy and distance travelled.  There could be several candidates, but miles / kWh seems a fairly good one that people can understand:

• ICE about 1.5 miles / kWh
• EV about 4 miles / kWh

Google has the answer

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=what+exactly+is+MPGe&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

Google has the answer

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=what+exactly+is+MPGe&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

Thank, but I am not entirely the wiser.

All those first page results seem to be very America(USA)-biased.  So "gasoline" is petrol (not diesel) and a "gallon" is one of those funny little 80%-sized things?

Yet, the article seemed to be referring to UK-cars?

JKenH said:

Average MPG for Cars UK 2022

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/cheap-car-insurance/average-mpg 

What exactly units were used in the MPGe in the article?

And the comparison of "fuel efficiency" still seems flawed (though embedded) as (to quote from the article) "Fuel efficiency varies by type of fuel, however, with petrol cars getting 36 mpg and diesel cars getting 43 mpg. In contrast, the average UK all-electric car gets a whopping 132 MPGe." 

The figures 36mpg petrol and 43 mpg diesel (both seem low to me) may mean exactly what it says more "fuel" efficient but not more "energy" efficient which is where, presumably, the real comparison of efficiency would be.

Then the article linked quotes the Tesla Model 3 as 119 MPGe whereas the first result from the "what does MPGe mean?" search says Tesla Model 3 is 141 MPGe.  Massive difference
https://www.hallvw.com/blog/what-does-mpge-mean/#:~:text=MPGe Definition,(which is 33.7kWh).

JKenH

I don’t know the full methodology Spiritmonitor.de use for working out MPGe but it is based on real world day submitted by drivers. In one of the links provided the number of drivers in the sample was shown. Spirit monitor will therefore acquire real raw data of miles driven and energy used and the apply a formula to calculate MPGe for each car.

without going back to the articles (and losing what I’ve typed so far) I believe the 119 relates to real world measurements and the 141 to some official tests. 

It does seem there is considerable variation between real world efficiency/range and test results as a test carried out by Autocar/What Car shows. Basically they brimmed the cars with electricity than ran them and measured the electricity needed to top up again. 

I will probably edit this post to add more links.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/electric-cars-best-real-world-range

Edit: summary off the results of the Autocar test by Inside EVs

The list is as follows:

 

1. Hyundai Kona Electric, 259 miles (258 EPA miles)

2. Jaguar I-Pace, 253 miles (234 EPA miles)

2. Kia Niro EV, 253 miles (239 EPA miles)

4. Tesla Model 3 Performance, 239 miles (299 EPA miles)

5. Tesla Model X P100D, 233 miles (289 EPA miles)

6. Nissan LEAF e+, 217 miles (226 EPA miles)

7. Mercedes-Benz EQC, 208 miles (259 WLTP miles - anticipated 220 EPA miles)

8. Tesla Model S 75kWh, 204 miles (259 EPA miles)

9. Audi e-tron, 196 miles (204 EPA miles)

10. Renault ZOE R135, 192 miles (238 WLTP miles)

11. Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus, 181 miles (250 EPA miles)

12. BMW i3 120Ah, 165 miles (153 EPA miles)

Edit2: This WhatCar article also shows the relative efficiency of the the cars measured using the same technique. The Kia and Hyundai are head and shoulders above the rest. Unfortunately there is no summary in table form.

https://www.whatcar.com/news/what-car-real-range-which-electric-car-can-go-farthest-in-the-real-world/n18159

Edit 3.  Apparently Tesla challenged the figures as the cars were not run until completely empty so the range was in part calculated but the important point (and what you were interested in) is the efficiency figures. (So if you are a Tesla fan you can be satisfied that Tesla say the range figures are wrong).

Edit 4: I have summarised the efficiency figures (which is what we were discussing) below

Smart Forfour 2.9miles/kWh 
VW e-Up (18.7kwh battery) 3.5
Seat Mii 3.2
VW e-Golf 3.3
BMW i3 3.1
Nissan Leaf 40kwh 2.8
Renault Zoe R110 2.9
Hyundai Kona 39kwh 3.6
BMW i3 3.3
Tesla M3SR 3.1
Renault Zoe R135 3.1
Audi E-tron 2.0

Tesla S75D 2.4
Mercedes EQC 2.2
Tesla M3LR 2.6*
Nissan Leaf 62kwh 3.1
Tesla MX100D 2.0
Tesla M3P 2.8
Kia e-Niro 3.5
Jaguar I-Pace 2.6
Hyundai Kona 64kwh 3.6

*see note in article as vehicle not provided by Tesla https://www.whatcar.com/news/what-car-real-range-which-electric-car-can-go-farthest-in-the-real-world/n18161

Martyn1981

The ID 5 is a nice looking car, and offers a different look for those interested in an ID 4.

Volkswagen Accepting Orders For Its ID.5 Coupe-Style SUV

The Volkswagen ID.5 is pretty much an ID.4 with a a curvaceous exterior. The company says it has only 12 mm less headroom for rear-seat passengers than the ID.4 but offers the kind of stylish exterior buyers crave. In a press release, the company says customers can now place an order for an ID.5 online.

The ID.5 will come with only a 77 kWh battery pack. The ID.5 Pro has a single 128 kW (172 hp) motor driving the rear wheels. The ID.5 Pro Performance offers a more powerful 150 kW (201 hp) rear motor, while the ID.5 GTX has dual motors with a total of 220 kW (295 hp). The GTX can accelerate to 100 km/h in 6.6 seconds, the company says.

Martyn1981

Cheerful piece of news from Australia, where EV adoption is a bit behind the curve.

EV drivers are driving further per year (on average) than petrol drivers, Now, I assume this is partly skewed by the fact that the economics of BEV's favour higher mileage drivers, and also that newer cars often drive further than older ones, but it will certainly make for good media coverage, and help to encourage more people, perhaps sitting on the fence, that a BEV is suitable for their needs, and that the infrastructure is improving. And then before you know it, sales enter disruption territory.

Electric cars averaged more travel than petrol vehicles in Australia in past year

Australian electric vehicle drivers are on average driving further than people with petrol vehicles as infrastructure improves, new statistics show.

The Australian Bureau of Statistics for the first time looked at how electric vehicle drivers use their cars and found that in the 12 months to 30 June 2020 they had travelled 69 million km.

Electric vehicles travelled 11.1 thousand km on average, which was 600km more than drivers of petrol vehicles for the year.

Solarchaser

Hi Ken, that's a mass of information right enough, and I don't have experience of all of those cars, only leaf 24 and tm3 long range, but I also know you have the newer leaf, I guess the 40, does 3.1 seem right to you?

All of those figures seem low to me.
I'd put the 24 leaf at between 3.6 and 4 m/kwh and tbh probably the same for the tm3.

To answer why are tesla figures so bad, id say this from my own observations,  (which are anecdotal I admit) on the motorway I see plenty of id3's, ioniques, leafs and kona's... and they are all (with very few exceptions) sitting on the inside lane doing around 60-65mph, conversely it's very rare to see any tesla doing the same, it tends to be only me (if I'm on the phone to someone and trying to limit road noise same as in any car) doing that kind of speed in a Tesla, most are blasting past at 70-80-...

What I'm getting at is that tesla will show lower consumption figures generally because they are generally bought to run motorway miles, whereas most other evs are bought to do non motorway miles, and as we all know, where ice cars do better mileage at motorway speeds, evs do worse.

Anyway, just my meanderings.