Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

CKhalvashi

michaels said:

Grumpy_chap said:

EVandPV said:

Octopus in NatWest deal to accelerate electric car business

The high street lender's Lombard division has provided a credit line to Octopus Electric Vehicles that will help it buy £500million of cars from Tesla, Volkswagen, Nissan and others over the next year.
Octopus leases the cars to firms looking to reduce the carbon footprint of their company car fleets. 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/octopus-in-natwest-deal-to-accelerate-electric-car-business/ar-AARd1MR

I am not sure that I understand this part of the article:

"Firms provide the cars to employees, who pay part of their gross salary to cover the costs of buying and running the vehicle, typically £35 less a month than for petrol or diesel cars."

I have read that as suggesting salary sacrifice at only £35 per month, but the number is not in the range that you'd normally expect for that.

Not that it matters to me as my employer does not have this scheme.  Just for the sake of interest and understanding.

You don't think it means £35 less per month than a similar book price petrol / diesel car?

I agree with Martyn.

Is it £35 in tax, £35 to the employee (neither of these sound right) or £35 overall including the lease, which most employees won't care about on such a scheme?

My Ioniq is more than £35/month cheaper in cash running costs than my old XE, likely more when it comes to depreciation when I get around to selling it, so the last doesn't sound right either. Both start from £30k-ish.

The methodology behind this one is at best extremely confusing.

JKenH

In this article Octopus provide an example of where the saving comes from.

Video Interview: CEO Fiona Howarth on Octopus EV salary sacrifice scheme

A VW ID.3 would be about £330 a month gross to lease, but on salary sacrifice, it’s more like £230 a month for a 20% tax payer, saving around £100 every month. A similarly specified petrol or diesel VW Golf on a personal lease would be about £260 per month.

https://www.whichev.net/2021/08/04/video-interview-ceo-fiona-howarth-on-octopus-ev-salary-sacrifice-scheme/


The savings are even greater for a 40% taxpayer and also there is a saving on NI contributions. It is the roll out of these salary sacrifice schemes which is one of the big drivers of new EV sales. 

Edit:

and here are some of the monthly prices to your employer for an 8000mpa 3year lease (3+35)

MG5 £240.59
Leaf £243.50
iD3 £258.45
Ionic £324.89
Mini £360.24
Zoe £361.35
Skoda Enyac £388.60
Ionic 5 £400.92
e-tron £451.73
TM3 £473.27
Kona £473.82
iD4 £489.18
TMY £582.36




https://www.octopusev.com/cars

For comparison a VW Golf 1.5 eTSI 150 R-Line 5dr DSG would cost £271.01 (incl VAT) on a personal lease or £225.84 (excl VAT) to your employer on a business lease.
https://www.v4b.co.uk/car-leasing/volkswagen/golf_hatchback/15_etsi_150_r~line_5dr_dsg/24-5000-9-92715.html?utm_term=volkswagen%20golf%20leasing%20deals&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIh92v6ue99AIVCuJ3Ch3Leg-eEAAYASAAEgJL2fD_BwE

A basic 1.5 Golf would cost you £237.32 on a personal lease (same terms 8k miles (3+35)).

https://www.v4b.co.uk/car-leasing/volkswagen/golf_hatchback/15_tsi_150_life_5dr/24-5000-9-92437.html

Grumpy_chap

Thanks for the thoughts on the £35 per month.  It certainly makes more sense that the idea is an EV on salary sacrifice is about £35 per month less than an ICE on salary sacrifice.  Clearly, my first reading was incorrect, which is why I queried it.

The explanation from Octopus also seems inconsistent:

JKenH said:

A VW ID.3 would be about £330 a month gross to lease, but on salary sacrifice, it’s more like £230 a month for a 20% tax payer, saving around £100 every month. A similarly specified petrol or diesel VW Golf on a personal lease would be about £260 per month.

I may be suffering from "unable to read" today, but that seems to be comparing an  EV on salary sacrifice versus an ICE on personal lease.  

The like-for-like comparison would have to be an EV versus ICE, both on salary sacrifice.

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

Thanks for the thoughts on the £35 per month.  It certainly makes more sense that the idea is an EV on salary sacrifice is about £35 per month less than an ICE on salary sacrifice.  Clearly, my first reading was incorrect, which is why I queried it.

The explanation from Octopus also seems inconsistent:

JKenH said:

A VW ID.3 would be about £330 a month gross to lease, but on salary sacrifice, it’s more like £230 a month for a 20% tax payer, saving around £100 every month. A similarly specified petrol or diesel VW Golf on a personal lease would be about £260 per month.

I may be suffering from "unable to read" today, but that seems to be comparing an  EV on salary sacrifice versus an ICE on personal lease.  

The like-for-like comparison would have to be an EV versus ICE, both on salary sacrifice.

The whole point taking an EV in salary sacrifice is that the cost (I.e. what it costs your employer) is deducted from your salary before tax and NI. The car this supplied by your employer is considered to be a benefit in kind but this year the BIK value of an EV is just 1% of  purchase price. If the purchase price is say £30k your tax bill as a basic rate taxpayer would be 20% of 1% of £30k, that works out at £60.

If your employer provided you with a petrol Golf, value, costing say, £25,000 you would have to pay tax on the BIK at a rate of 30%. As a basic rate taxpayer your bill would be 20% of 30% of £25k which is £1500. There is therefore little point in employers providing a petrol car under salary sacrifice as you would be paying for the lease net of tax at say £180/ month (£225 less 20%tax) but paying £125 tax on top so £305 per month. You can do a personal lease for £271/month so that is the cheaper option and why it is used in the comparison by Octopus.

An EV which cost £300/ month to the employer would cost a 20% taxpayer £240/month plus £5/month tax, so a total of £245. 

The savings are much bigger for a 40% taxpayer. If you want to own a new car and you pay 40% tax buying an EV salary sacrifice is a no brainier. This is why EV sales are doing so well. 

Please note I have omitted NI from the calculation to keep it simple but this brings an additional saving. 

2nd_time_buyer

A friend mentioned that Nissan leaf can do vehicle to grid. Is this true?

I have had a bit of a look on the web and can only find details of trial schemes. Cheers

orrery

2nd_time_buyer said:

A friend mentioned that Nissan leaf can do vehicle to grid. Is this true?

I have had a bit of a look on the web and can only find details of trial schemes. Cheers

Yes indeed. The Leaf has a Chademo rapid charge connector, which is being superseded by the CCS connector on most new EVs.

The problem is that the CCS doesn't yet support V2G. Hence the trials are using Chademo, but this can't be a long term solution.

The V2G charger is a DC charger, which is technically much more complex than a standard charge point (which is really just a fancy mains connector with a few bits bolted on). No-one in their right mind would splash out on a Chademo V2G charger, only to have to do the same again for a CCS V2G charger.

2nd_time_buyer

orrery said:

2nd_time_buyer said:

A friend mentioned that Nissan leaf can do vehicle to grid. Is this true?

I have had a bit of a look on the web and can only find details of trial schemes. Cheers

Yes indeed. The Leaf has a Chademo rapid charge connector, which is being superseded by the CCS connector on most new EVs.

The problem is that the CCS doesn't yet support V2G. Hence the trials are using Chademo, but this can't be a long term solution.

The V2G charger is a DC charger, which is technically much more complex than a standard charge point (which is really just a fancy mains connector with a few bits bolted on). No-one in their right mind would splash out on a Chademo V2G charger, only to have to do the same again for a CCS V2G charger.

Thanks. So is the restriction on the car then? Or if you get a new car now could it potentially do v2g in the future?

EVandPV

Nissan bets heavily on electric cars as it pours £13.2bn into 23 new models with key role for Sunderland plant

“Europe will take the lead on electrification around the world for Nissan. In Europe, Sunderland is the one which will take the lead towards electrification.”

https://www.cityam.com/nissan-bets-heavily-on-electric-cars-as-it-pours-13-2bn-into-23-new-models-with-key-role-for-sunderland-plant/

Coastalwatch

2nd_time_buyer said:

A friend mentioned that Nissan leaf can do vehicle to grid. Is this true?

I have had a bit of a look on the web and can only find details of trial schemes. Cheers

Hi 2tb, Yes the Leaf is capable of V2G or V2H and trials are indeed in progress. If you are lucky you may be able to opt to be added to one of them. In doing so you will have a V2G unit fitted to your premises FOC in which to take part in the trial. At the end of the trial, usually two years, I believe you have the option of purchasing the installed unit for the princely sum of £1. It may only be capable then of V2H but I'd happily settle for that given that the likely retail price of such units are circa £5k! I believe with the Octopus scheme you lease the EV and hand back at the end of the trial. With at least one other I know they were originally seeking Leaf owners to take part so worth investigating if interested.

2nd_time_buyer

Thanks. I'll have a look round and see what the score is. Much appreciated.