Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

JKenH

Part of the charging anxiety for me is that many locations, particularly motorway services only have one or two chargers, whereas most petrol stations have at least eight. The chances of having to wait for very long at a petrol station are slim even if all the pumps are in use as there will almost certainly be someone who will move on within a minute.

If you turn up as I did a couple of weeks ago at Watford Gap Services on the M1 and there is only one charger (yes, seriously) and it is occupied with no owner in sight then you have no idea whether you will be waiting 5 minutes or 30 (or even longer if the driver is having a meal and picking a few things up at the shop). It isn’t always as easy as just moving onto the next one if you are low on range as there is no certainty that the next one will be available (or working). 

Although I think there are now more chargers than petrol stations and electric cars are outnumbered by diesel/petrol at least 20 to 1 you just don’t hear stories about not being able to fill up with fuel. Is this because the press is being selective or does it reflect reality?

I believe the problem would be less acute if there were actually fewer charging locations with more chargers per location. Currently there are thousands of chargers sitting unused at anyone time but as they are so scattered (often in quite obscure locations - in an emergency I have had to charge at a pub and a small industrial unit in a trading estate and a golf club) it does mean that if the one you aim for is occupied the next one needs a search and a drive round. If there were half a dozen chargers in one location then the chances of them all being in use would be reduced and even if they were then there would be a decent probability that at least one might become available in the next 5 minutes. 

Looking at charging for those with no off street parking then what is the best solution? People are going to want to park near their home. If there is an unoccupied charging bay outside their house they will use it. So what restrictions can you place on parking there? Well, easy you may say, just restrict it to charging vehicles. But how does it work if someone plugs in at 6pm and their car is full by 10pm? Are they expected to go out and move it? If there is no time restriction then someone could plug in, set their charge timer for  10 minutes and leave it parked all night or even a few days. I foresee a lot of problems there and charging rage setting in if those who get home from work first or work from home hog the chargers. If, though, you impose time restrictions everyone has to go out again in the evening and move their cars, but to where?

What are the alternatives for those who live in the terraced streets of our cities? Space is at such a premium in inner cities that you can’t just build massive charging stations for people to park/charge their cars overnight so the only solution is to make sure that there are enough on street charging points for every resident who has a car - and issue something like a parking permit. On average though those chargers will then be in use for perhaps no more than a few minutes per day - the same as those of us with our own chargers use them. If there are going to be 10 million cars for which off street parking is not available then we would need 10 million chargers and if the cost was, say, £1000 per charger that would be £10bn. Hopefully that could be recouped over 10 years through parking permits or charging fees but is there the political will to stump up the money up front.

Presumably someone has thought this all through and has a coordinated plan (I haven’t seen one yet) to install the chargers we need ahead of demand. Or will it all just be left to develop in a piecemeal fashion as it has done so far with a couple of chargers here and there following a little bit behind demand with all the frustration that will cause. 

Solarchaser

Multiple chargers in one place, but not many locations.... you just described the Tesla superchargers really.

And for what it's worth, I think a load of high wattage chargers in 1 location makes good sense for folks like yourself on a long journey that don't want delays.

However sporadic lower wattage chargers makes more sense for those who want to just top up a few kwh while... shopping, out for a meal, walking round a park etc etc etc. 

In short I think it needs multiple solutions, and that seems to be the approach, though varied through different parts of the different countries.

1 charger at Watford gap services seems strange right enough, have you complained to ecotricity or whoever owns it?
I'd imagine if it was being well used they could justify fitting another.

QrizB

JKenH said:

Although I think there are now more chargers than petrol stations and electric cars are outnumbered by diesel/petrol at least 20 to 1 you just don’t hear stories about not being able to fill up with fuel. Is this because the press is being selective or does it reflect reality?

I suspect it just isn't news-worthy. Probably one time in four that I'm looking to fill up my car with petrol, the petrol station is busy enough that I decide not to stop and come back another day instead. I can't be the only one this happens to, surely?

(Although I only fill up once or twice a month, so one time in four is about five times a year.)

JKenH

QrizB said:

JKenH said:

Although I think there are now more chargers than petrol stations and electric cars are outnumbered by diesel/petrol at least 20 to 1 you just don’t hear stories about not being able to fill up with fuel. Is this because the press is being selective or does it reflect reality?

I suspect it just isn't news-worthy. Probably one time in four that I'm looking to fill up my car with petrol, the petrol station is busy enough that I decide not to stop and come back another day instead. I can't be the only one this happens to, surely?

(Although I only fill up once or twice a month, so one time in four is about five times a year.)

Yes, we don’t expect to have to wait to fill up. That’s probably why we find it so frustrating when we can’t just drive up and charge. We only fill my wife’s Kia up about 4 times a year but I do remember when we just ran FF cars that we would sometimes find all the pumps occupied at our Local Tesco but it was only a couple of minutes at most before one of the 16 pumps became free as the turnover is so rapid. 

When you have a 600 mile diesel range it’s not a problem to fill up the next time you are passing. Most of us who currently have EVs have some facility to charge at home cheaply so only public charge when we really have to (unless you live in bits of Scotland where, apparently, you don’t have to pay). It’s even more difficult if you run one of the older shorter range EVs. My Leaf will do 140 miles in summer but only maybe 100 on a cold rainy day in winter so if you can’t use the charger you plan to it can cause problems.

Don’t misunderstand me, while there have been moments of frustration when I wish I still had a diesel, I much prefer driving and owning an EV but I am realistic when explaining both the pros and cons to people. I think it’s fair to say that those of us on here us who have taken the EV plunge so far have done so because it is something we really wanted to do and accept (or deny) the shortfalls. Others have bought EVs as second cars and avoid the range and associated charging issues by using a petrol or diesel for long runs so are also happy. It’s when we try to force people into EVs that don’t suit their lifestyle that the problems really arise. We need to make charging as easy as possible before such a groundswell of negative opinion develops and slows down the roll out. It isn’t going to work unless public opinion changes and that will only happen if people can avoid negative charging experiences. Despite my being an EV fan I have recounted my 25 minute saga of getting a charge started and subsequent failed attempts to end it to most of my friends.

(Just as an aside my postman commented to me , as my wife drove past him in the Leaf, about not being able to get used to EVs. I explained to him an electric van would be perfect for his job. His flat out response was “I don’t want one!” . He then told me that his wife who is a mechanic at the local Ford garage had just been on a course for the Mach-E. What will it take to persuade some people?)

Martyn1981

The steady shift to BEV's continues, with New York following California's move to set an end date for ICE sales.

This might help to nudge, or force the transition in the US, where GM, Ford and Chrysler Stellantis recently seemed to get on board with President Biden's plan for 50% EV sales by 2030. Sadly, the legacy companies have watered that down to an aspiration to reach 40-50%, and include PHEV's, and with enough financial support from the Federal Government.

[Edit - Oops, meant to add that in the US, the UAW (united auto workers) has now come out against EV's, as their production will need 30% less employees.]

Perhaps having harder targets, set out in States, will focus their plans a bit better, and speed up the transition. Well, one can hope.

New York Governor Signs Bill Bill Banning Sale Of ICE Vehicles After 2035

New York Governor Kathy Hochul has signed legislation banning the sale of passenger cars and light duty trucks with infernal combustion engines by 2035. The new law makes New York the second US state to ban conventional cars and trucks, after California did so a year ago. The legislation also seeks to eliminate emissions from medium- and heavy-duty vehicles by 2045 and requires the state government to create of a detailed plan for zero emissions vehicle development by 2023.

According to The Hill, Hochul also signed an order instructing the state Department of Environmental Conservation to develop a regulation cutting the pollution emitted by trucks. While Hochul’s office did not release details of the proposed regulation, it projected it would “accelerate” sales of zero emission trucks.

Coastalwatch

Martyn1981 said:

[Edit - Oops, meant to add that in the US, the UAW (united auto workers) has now come out against EV's, as their production will need 30% less employees.]

Are they in denial of AGW!  How short sighted can some people get.

Oh well, it is the US, so perhaps a percentage of them are those still believing that Trump won the last election and that he'll put things right when he wins the Presidency back in 2024!

Grumpy_chap

QrizB said:

JKenH said:

Although I think there are now more chargers than petrol stations and electric cars are outnumbered by diesel/petrol at least 20 to 1 you just don’t hear stories about not being able to fill up with fuel. Is this because the press is being selective or does it reflect reality?

I suspect it just isn't news-worthy. Probably one time in four that I'm looking to fill up my car with petrol, the petrol station is busy enough that I decide not to stop and come back another day instead. I can't be the only one this happens to, surely?

(Although I only fill up once or twice a month, so one time in four is about five times a year.)

With your ICE, you find the petrol station so busy on 1 in 4 times (5 times per year) that you decide to not bother!!!!

Really!!!

Before COVID, I was doing 30k miles per year and filling up twice a week.  I cannot remember the last time that the forecourt was even so busy that the wait time was even slightly frustrating.... Let alone so long a delay that I'd give up and go elsewhere.

Martyn1981

Coastalwatch said:

Martyn1981 said:

[Edit - Oops, meant to add that in the US, the UAW (united auto workers) has now come out against EV's, as their production will need 30% less employees.]

Are they in denial of AGW!  How short sighted can some people get.

Oh well, it is the US, so perhaps a percentage of them are those still believing that Trump won the last election and that he'll put things right when he wins the Presidency back in 2024!

It's scary isn't it? It's like Toyota's campaigning against higher BEV targets around the World, because they are more concerned about the money they will have to write off, having bet the bank on HFCV's and PHEV's. This time we have the UAW working against EV's because less jobs will be available, which (playing devil's advocate) may sound OK at first, but all that will happen in the medium term is that Tesla, VW, China etc will simply take all the sales, and the US legacy companies will lose 100% of the jobs.

Perhaps they are still in denial, because US PEV sales are still at levels a few years behind China and Europe, and they wrongly assume (as many others have) that growth in PEV sales will be linear.

Another issue, and this is when it gets really scary for Ford and GM with $100bn high interest rate net debt, is that the $10k(ish) EV credit would almost instantly make the vehicles cost competitive with ICEV's, which in turn could crash sales of ICEV's, crash secondhand values of ICEV's, and also the secondhand value of ICEV's coming out of personal lease plans. And all of this is going to happen when these 'big boys' need to invest $10bn's in BEV's and battery factories.

Poor GM, after selling relatively few Bolts now, for years, and almost certainly at a loss, has now had to put aside $1.8bn to cover the cost of recalling all of them.

No wonder the companies and the UAW don't know what to do, or where to turn, it must be very scary for them. It also shows why so much respect is due, I believe, for Herbert Diess, who brought all the heads of the VW Group together for 'Mission T', in order to work out how they might become competitive with BEV's over the next 5yrs. He spotted the problem, and not too late, and decided to tackle it head on, rather than head in the sand.



Here's the article about the UAW:

After White House EV Event With UAW, UAW Is Lobbying Against EVs

Do you remember that hyped-up “EV event” at the White House that was hosted by President Biden but was really a pretty ceremony for the UAW to come and puff its chest? During that event, which excluded EV-leader Tesla, which produces not only the most American made EVs but also the most American made cars in general, President Biden announced the goal of having half of vehicles sold in the USA being electric by 2040. [Should be 2030. M.]

Tesla, the world’s leading EV manufacturer with the best selling vehicles, was purposefully excluded on behalf of the UAW. And now the UAW, it seems, could be changing its mind on EVs (rather soon).

QrizB

Grumpy_chap said:

QrizB said:

JKenH said:

Although I think there are now more chargers than petrol stations and electric cars are outnumbered by diesel/petrol at least 20 to 1 you just don’t hear stories about not being able to fill up with fuel. Is this because the press is being selective or does it reflect reality?

I suspect it just isn't news-worthy. Probably one time in four that I'm looking to fill up my car with petrol, the petrol station is busy enough that I decide not to stop and come back another day instead. I can't be the only one this happens to, surely?

(Although I only fill up once or twice a month, so one time in four is about five times a year.)

With you ICE, you find the petrol station so busy on 1 in 4 times (5 times per year) that you decide to not bother!!!!
Really!!!
Before COVID, I was doing 30k miles per week and filling up twice a week.  I cannot remember the last time that the forecourt was even so busy that the wait time was even slightly frustrating.... Let alone so long a delay that I'd give up and go elsewhere.

Yes, really. I wouldn't normally join the queue in the first place.

And 30k miles a week but only filling up twice? You must've had a big tank

JKenH

QrizB said:

Grumpy_chap said:

QrizB said:

JKenH said:

Although I think there are now more chargers than petrol stations and electric cars are outnumbered by diesel/petrol at least 20 to 1 you just don’t hear stories about not being able to fill up with fuel. Is this because the press is being selective or does it reflect reality?

I suspect it just isn't news-worthy. Probably one time in four that I'm looking to fill up my car with petrol, the petrol station is busy enough that I decide not to stop and come back another day instead. I can't be the only one this happens to, surely?

(Although I only fill up once or twice a month, so one time in four is about five times a year.)

With you ICE, you find the petrol station so busy on 1 in 4 times (5 times per year) that you decide to not bother!!!!
Really!!!
Before COVID, I was doing 30k miles per week and filling up twice a week.  I cannot remember the last time that the forecourt was even so busy that the wait time was even slightly frustrating.... Let alone so long a delay that I'd give up and go elsewhere.

Yes, really. I wouldn't normally join the queue in the first place.

And 30k miles a week but only filling up twice? You must've had a big tank

In your case I wouldn’t even consider an EV unless it was a Tesla or you never intend to use a public charger. You really do need a lot of patience if you are going to be relying on the public charging network. I don’t have that much that’s why I am always moaning about charging.