Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

JKenH

Electric cars could save more than £1,000 a year in running costs, research shows

The largest saving over a four-year lease is the Nissan Leaf compared to the Ford Focus ecoboost, which sees over £7,000 in savings.

Despite its popularity, the Tesla Model 3 would actually be more expensive to run over four years in comparison to the BMW 320i, with losses of £741.

For cars compared over a seven-year ownership, drivers could save more than £13,000 with an MG ZS EV rather than a Seat Ateca.

However, big losses can also be made on electric cars with a £8,105 loss when comparing the Renault Zoe GT Line and the Renault Clio.

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1466011/UK-electric-cars-cheaper-average-petrol-diesel

michaels

Martyn1981 said:

Not sure about 60% of charging being at rapid chargers, perhaps 6%? I suspect the vast majority of charging will be at home, office or other slower charging facilities.

Not sure what the figure of 2.3m cars relates to, or means?

The 60% was based on 50% of properties not having home charging and even with home charging some long trips requiring away form home charging.  Also I am not convinced by destination charging being a thing longer term - once high speed chargers are ubiquitous people will fill up once a week for 10 mins rather than trying to put 7kw in for 30 mins at the supermarket, 40 mins at the gym etc.

The 2.3m chargers was the number you came up with based on 700 per day, I was assuming this included home chargers and was pointing out this was no where near enough for the 50% of EV owners we are assuming will charge at home.

CKhalvashi

michaels said:

Martyn1981 said:

Not sure about 60% of charging being at rapid chargers, perhaps 6%? I suspect the vast majority of charging will be at home, office or other slower charging facilities.

Not sure what the figure of 2.3m cars relates to, or means?

The 60% was based on 50% of properties not having home charging and even with home charging some long trips requiring away form home charging.  Also I am not convinced by destination charging being a thing longer term - once high speed chargers are ubiquitous people will fill up once a week for 10 mins rather than trying to put 7kw in for 30 mins at the supermarket, 40 mins at the gym etc.

The 2.3m chargers was the number you came up with based on 700 per day, I was assuming this included home chargers and was pointing out this was no where near enough for the 50% of EV owners we are assuming will charge at home.

That's going to rely on a large network of fast chargers though, and someone has excluded the imported versions available to the market.

AEC sell a 500kw charger for sub-€40k, which can charge 4 vehicles at a time. Not sure of the specifics, but this would be no slower than fuelling the Yeti with the right car infrastructure in place. This provides up to 270kw to a single outlet at a time.

Even at a 50kw charger, I can get the Ioniq charged (theoretically, as stated already it hasn't yet been rapid charged) from 20% to 100% in the hour I'm in the supermarket.

500kw I consider completely adequate for the next 10-15 years at least for most people, however it's going to be important to keep the cost of charging competitive if people are going to use them, thus making them profitable overall.

If I were to raise prices by 5%, my overall revenue would likely drop, and overall profit fall completely through the floor. My operating model is nowhere near as capital intensive as charging points on a percentage of revenue basis.

Martyn1981

michaels said:

Martyn1981 said:

Not sure about 60% of charging being at rapid chargers, perhaps 6%? I suspect the vast majority of charging will be at home, office or other slower charging facilities.

Not sure what the figure of 2.3m cars relates to, or means?

The 60% was based on 50% of properties not having home charging and even with home charging some long trips requiring away form home charging.  Also I am not convinced by destination charging being a thing longer term - once high speed chargers are ubiquitous people will fill up once a week for 10 mins rather than trying to put 7kw in for 30 mins at the supermarket, 40 mins at the gym etc.

The 2.3m chargers was the number you came up with based on 700 per day, I was assuming this included home chargers and was pointing out this was no where near enough for the 50% of EV owners we are assuming will charge at home.

Nah, I can't see 60% of charging being done at rapid charging, as I said, home charging, and work, and let's add in street charging will be the majority. You even have to consider how impractical it'll be for people to move cars during the day (when at work) or at night, if they are using chargers that will take less than 6-10hrs. In those circumstances you'd need more rapid chargers, that spend most of their time not charging. I'd still guess at closer to 6% than your 60%.

Yes, I mentioned 2.3m chargers (charging cars in 30-60mins), not 2.3m cars, hence why I couldn't make much sense of your final paragraph. Only my opinion, but in the context of the article (Tesla Superchargers) I took the figures of 42 and 700 to be rapid chargers, or at the very least, public chargers. As I explained, 42 rapid chargers per day, would appear to meet the needs of a full UK BEV car fleet by 2030, but certainly meet the needs of what is more likely to be a car fleet of ~1/3rd BEV's.

I believe the target for home chargers is ~350,000 by 2025, an increase of around a quarter of a million, or ~152 per day. Obviously the number of home chargers will simply rise in line with the number of households that buy them and have suitable  off road parking.

Solarchaser

Just a wee note on destination chargers, over the last few weeks I've been doing a bit of travelling for work, and have been picking hotels that are obviously close to where I'm working,  but also ones that have a destination charger as then I can charge overnight, and tesla destination chargers are free.

Clever hotels will get in on that one quickly, as most weekday hotel bookings are working people, free overnight charging will be a thing that convinces business users to pick hotel E over A-D, because the business traveller generally wouldn't pay for the hotel, but would *tend* to pay for the "fuel".

JKenH

Solarchaser said:

Just a wee note on destination chargers, over the last few weeks I've been doing a bit of travelling for work, and have been picking hotels that are obviously close to where I'm working,  but also ones that have a destination charger as then I can charge overnight, and tesla destination chargers are free.

Clever hotels will get in on that one quickly, as most weekday hotel bookings are working people, free overnight charging will be a thing that convinces business users to pick hotel E over A-D, because the business traveller generally wouldn't pay for the hotel, but would *tend* to pay for the "fuel".

Fully charging a TM3 LR might cost the hotel £10 or so for one night although most people will only need a partial charge. I can see the logic in this as not only does it generate goodwill but the customer is guaranteed to use the suppliers service (hotel) unlike perhaps a supermarket where there is no obligation to enter the store. I admit to having plugged in at my local Tesco and then wandered round the other shops on the adjacent retail park. 

Out of interest how many chargers are there at the hotels you use and do you see many cars plugged in but fully charged and hogging the charger?

Solarchaser

Varied to be honest. 
Usually between 2 and 6.
And roughly a third are tesla specific.
The ones I visited, I was the only car using them.

However your question about who was hogging but not using, can't tell I'm afraid, while the leaf tells you what it's doing, the tesla doesn't, and from what I can see neither the jaguar nor the mustang tell you either.
I dont see hybrids displaying either, so you have no idea whether it's at 10% or 100%

In fact I think it's a failing of the Tesla,  as on the leaf you can select "automatic " to unlock the charger when your charge is complete, but with the Tesla There's no option for that.
And the Tesla chargers were all 11kw chargers, so even when I was pretty low, by 4am I was at 100% and so if someone had come by to use it (yeah I know, maybe not at 4am) my car would have been blocking it with no good reason.

Maybe Elon will do a Software update to release the lock from Tesla chargers once charge is complete.... but you would still need a system to tell other users that it was free to be disconnected.  Hmmm

QrizB

JKenH said:

Out of interest how many chargers are there at the hotels you use and do you see many cars plugged in but fully charged and hogging the charger?

If you were running a hotel (OK, if *I* was running a hotel) there would be a separate room rate that includes a guaranteed charger (much like there arer separate rates that include breakfast). It might be a little more expensive than a basic room but not by enough to concern the corporate beancounters.

CKhalvashi

QrizB said:

JKenH said:

Out of interest how many chargers are there at the hotels you use and do you see many cars plugged in but fully charged and hogging the charger?

If you were running a hotel (OK, if *I* was running a hotel) there would be a separate room rate that includes a guaranteed charger (much like there arer separate rates that include breakfast). It might be a little more expensive than a basic room but not by enough to concern the corporate beancounters.

The only problem I see with this is the potential BIK implication, especially if the company is paying for mileage.

I've plugged the car in at work before now (I own the company that owns the lease on the premises) and transferred £5 to the company bank account whenever doing so. The only time I've needed to do this has been to drive into central London in the day without charging the car the night before. I see it as being paid 45p/mile to provide my own fuel, and HMRC if this is a frequent event will likely see it like this too. The occasional one off I'm not sure.

Martyn1981

OK, this headline surprised me, as did the first paragraph,

Orders for diesel and petrol cars at Zenith in June were surpassed by those for battery electric vehicles (BEVs) for the first time.

 but then I thought ...... 'perhaps it's just down to Tesla ships arriving in June and distorting the market', but then I read para 3:

Over the past 12 months, Zenith reports that 41% of orders were for BEVs.

Great news, EV's and importantly BEV's, appear to be massively disrupting this sector already.

Orders for electric vehicles overtake ICE cars

The top 10 FN50 leasing and fleet management company says that pure electric vehicles (EVs) accounted for more than half (54%) of orders in June, compared to almost a third (32%) in the same month last year.

Demand for electric vans also increased in June to account for 69% of van orders compared to 1% in June 2020. Over the past 12 months, demand for fully electric vans has built to account for almost one in three van orders.