Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

shinytop said:

Martyn1981 said:

Progress on 'Alice' the 9 seater BEV airplane.

Eviation Rolls Out 100% Electric Airplane Alice’s Production Version

Was the company’s plan too ambitious? Seemingly not. In November 2020, Eviation said it was indeed on track to deliver its first Alice electric airplanes to customer in 2022. Yes, that customer is still Cape Air, which is a regional aircraft carrier in New England, USA. Steve Hanley provided an update on the dream of the electric aviation startup. “Alice is built for regional flights up to 650 miles at a cruising speed of 276 mph. That covers journeys like from San Jose to San Diego or London to Prague. While conventional planes fly faster, electric planes like Alice are 2 to 3 orders of magnitude quieter than commercial jet aircraft and could use shorter runways. Those factors mean they can fly into and out of smaller airports that are closer to travelers’ final destinations.”

“‘I think it’s important that the industry looks at its responsibilities to the planet and makes itself more sustainable in terms of emissions, but it needs to work economically,’ Bar-Yohay says. Alice costs about $200 per flight hour to operate. A turboprop with similar performance costs between $1,200 and $2,000 per flight hour, meaning ticket prices for Alice could be substantially less than those for conventional aircraft. Lots of people might be delighted to add an hour or two to their flight if they can fly for half the money.”

All of that background brings us to this month’s news. A production version of Alice has been finalized. Eviation is approaching the runway! Its first flight is planned for later this year, and the goal remains to deliver the first customer planes to Cape Air in 2022 — next year.

Though, apparently, Cape Air also needs some time with the plane itself and use in commercial service is not expected until 2024.

Very interesting. I wonder if the economics will work.  It suggests a turboprop costs 6-10 times the E plane to operate.  Does that include the purchase cost? An ICE car certainly doesn't cost 6-12 times as much as an EV to operate.  I also worry about the staff costs; a pilot per 9 passengers is a lot more than currently and there are a lot of other industry costs that are per aircraft rather than per passenger.  

It is good to see a move to smaller, lighter vehicles; it's a shame the BEV industry isn't going ther same way. 

Only my interpretation, but I read this:

Alice costs about $200 per flight hour to operate. A turboprop with similar performance costs between $1,200 and $2,000 per flight hour,

to mean the fuel and maintenance cost per hr of flight, and since it's a comparison of 'similar performance' I also assume that  the crew will be the same/similar.

Again only my opinion, and a rough guess, but I'd say an ICE vehicle does cost around 6-10x* as much to operate per mile in terms of fuel and maintenance v's a BEV?

* I'm thinking leccy at say 4p/mile (but can be far cheaper), v's petrol/diesel at around 10-20p/mile (30 to 60mpg), then the higher servicing costs of the ICE/mile (remember a 10k mile service will cost ~2or3p/mile), and the much higher cost of wear and tear to brake pads, engine, gearbox, clutch, cooling, exhaust, all of which of course have a cost/mile. So 6-10x sounds sensible(ish) I think, but it's a very interesting question?

Edit - Been pondering this some more, as it is I think, an interesting question, and perhaps 6-10x is a bit high for a BEV v's ICE, perhaps 4-6x is fairer? How I got there was to consider a BEV on E7 at 8p/kWh, so 2p/mile plus 1p/mile for servicing, v's an ICE at 40mpg, so about 15p/mile and 3p/mile servicing, giving me an upper figure of 6x (3p v's 18p), plus all those maintenance costs of the ICE as it ages, but that gets hard to quantify (for me) - would it be fair to say after 100k miles we'll need new discs, clutch, exhaust, timing belt, and a proportion of a gearbox, perhaps £1,500 or 1.5p/mile?

CKhalvashi

Martyn1981 said:

shinytop said:

Martyn1981 said:

Progress on 'Alice' the 9 seater BEV airplane.

Eviation Rolls Out 100% Electric Airplane Alice’s Production Version

Was the company’s plan too ambitious? Seemingly not. In November 2020, Eviation said it was indeed on track to deliver its first Alice electric airplanes to customer in 2022. Yes, that customer is still Cape Air, which is a regional aircraft carrier in New England, USA. Steve Hanley provided an update on the dream of the electric aviation startup. “Alice is built for regional flights up to 650 miles at a cruising speed of 276 mph. That covers journeys like from San Jose to San Diego or London to Prague. While conventional planes fly faster, electric planes like Alice are 2 to 3 orders of magnitude quieter than commercial jet aircraft and could use shorter runways. Those factors mean they can fly into and out of smaller airports that are closer to travelers’ final destinations.”

“‘I think it’s important that the industry looks at its responsibilities to the planet and makes itself more sustainable in terms of emissions, but it needs to work economically,’ Bar-Yohay says. Alice costs about $200 per flight hour to operate. A turboprop with similar performance costs between $1,200 and $2,000 per flight hour, meaning ticket prices for Alice could be substantially less than those for conventional aircraft. Lots of people might be delighted to add an hour or two to their flight if they can fly for half the money.”

All of that background brings us to this month’s news. A production version of Alice has been finalized. Eviation is approaching the runway! Its first flight is planned for later this year, and the goal remains to deliver the first customer planes to Cape Air in 2022 — next year.

Though, apparently, Cape Air also needs some time with the plane itself and use in commercial service is not expected until 2024.

Very interesting. I wonder if the economics will work.  It suggests a turboprop costs 6-10 times the E plane to operate.  Does that include the purchase cost? An ICE car certainly doesn't cost 6-12 times as much as an EV to operate.  I also worry about the staff costs; a pilot per 9 passengers is a lot more than currently and there are a lot of other industry costs that are per aircraft rather than per passenger.  

It is good to see a move to smaller, lighter vehicles; it's a shame the BEV industry isn't going ther same way. 

Only my interpretation, but I read this:

Alice costs about $200 per flight hour to operate. A turboprop with similar performance costs between $1,200 and $2,000 per flight hour,

to mean the fuel and maintenance cost per hr of flight, and since it's a comparison of 'similar performance' I also assume that  the crew will be the same/similar.

Again only my opinion, and a rough guess, but I'd say an ICE vehicle does cost around 6-10x* as much to operate per mile in terms of fuel and maintenance v's a BEV?

* I'm thinking leccy at say 4p/mile (but can be far cheaper), v's petrol/diesel at around 10-20p/mile (30 to 60mpg), then the higher servicing costs of the ICE/mile (remember a 10k mile service will cost ~2or3p/mile), and the much higher cost of wear and tear to brake pads, engine, gearbox, clutch, cooling, exhaust, all of which of course have a cost/mile. So 6-10x sounds sensible(ish) I think, but it's a very interesting question?

In theory, you'd be looking at SEP single pilot ops for something like this. In much of Eastern Europe, you'd be looking at as little as €20/hour for crew in this case.

Even in the UK, you won't be looking much more than £60/block, looking at the DH6 pilot scales at Loganair.

Under FAA rules, it's essential to hold a full ATPL for commercial ops, so the crew potentially could be more at the EE end of things than the UK, as something like this surely would be good for hour building.

Martyn1981

CKhalvashi said:

Martyn1981 said:

shinytop said:

Martyn1981 said:

Progress on 'Alice' the 9 seater BEV airplane.

Eviation Rolls Out 100% Electric Airplane Alice’s Production Version

Was the company’s plan too ambitious? Seemingly not. In November 2020, Eviation said it was indeed on track to deliver its first Alice electric airplanes to customer in 2022. Yes, that customer is still Cape Air, which is a regional aircraft carrier in New England, USA. Steve Hanley provided an update on the dream of the electric aviation startup. “Alice is built for regional flights up to 650 miles at a cruising speed of 276 mph. That covers journeys like from San Jose to San Diego or London to Prague. While conventional planes fly faster, electric planes like Alice are 2 to 3 orders of magnitude quieter than commercial jet aircraft and could use shorter runways. Those factors mean they can fly into and out of smaller airports that are closer to travelers’ final destinations.”

“‘I think it’s important that the industry looks at its responsibilities to the planet and makes itself more sustainable in terms of emissions, but it needs to work economically,’ Bar-Yohay says. Alice costs about $200 per flight hour to operate. A turboprop with similar performance costs between $1,200 and $2,000 per flight hour, meaning ticket prices for Alice could be substantially less than those for conventional aircraft. Lots of people might be delighted to add an hour or two to their flight if they can fly for half the money.”

All of that background brings us to this month’s news. A production version of Alice has been finalized. Eviation is approaching the runway! Its first flight is planned for later this year, and the goal remains to deliver the first customer planes to Cape Air in 2022 — next year.

Though, apparently, Cape Air also needs some time with the plane itself and use in commercial service is not expected until 2024.

Very interesting. I wonder if the economics will work.  It suggests a turboprop costs 6-10 times the E plane to operate.  Does that include the purchase cost? An ICE car certainly doesn't cost 6-12 times as much as an EV to operate.  I also worry about the staff costs; a pilot per 9 passengers is a lot more than currently and there are a lot of other industry costs that are per aircraft rather than per passenger.  

It is good to see a move to smaller, lighter vehicles; it's a shame the BEV industry isn't going ther same way. 

Only my interpretation, but I read this:

Alice costs about $200 per flight hour to operate. A turboprop with similar performance costs between $1,200 and $2,000 per flight hour,

to mean the fuel and maintenance cost per hr of flight, and since it's a comparison of 'similar performance' I also assume that  the crew will be the same/similar.

Again only my opinion, and a rough guess, but I'd say an ICE vehicle does cost around 6-10x* as much to operate per mile in terms of fuel and maintenance v's a BEV?

* I'm thinking leccy at say 4p/mile (but can be far cheaper), v's petrol/diesel at around 10-20p/mile (30 to 60mpg), then the higher servicing costs of the ICE/mile (remember a 10k mile service will cost ~2or3p/mile), and the much higher cost of wear and tear to brake pads, engine, gearbox, clutch, cooling, exhaust, all of which of course have a cost/mile. So 6-10x sounds sensible(ish) I think, but it's a very interesting question?

In theory, you'd be looking at SEP single pilot ops for something like this. In much of Eastern Europe, you'd be looking at as little as €20/hour for crew in this case.

Even in the UK, you won't be looking much more than £60/block, looking at the DH6 pilot scales at Loganair.

Under FAA rules, it's essential to hold a full ATPL for commercial ops, so the crew potentially could be more at the EE end of things than the UK, as something like this surely would be good for hour building.

Thanks, all fascinating. My own personal theory, so feel free to laugh at/dismiss it, is that shorter range electric flight, albeit with larger planes, could allow airports to operate longer hours, and therefore improve costs/profitability and reduce expansion needs.

As an aside, I notice the article talking about batteries with a power to weight of 400Wh/kg, and recall Elon Musk saying that 400Wh/kg was needed for short haul flights to 'take off' so to speak, opening the door to electric aircraft. But what really interested me, was when he pointed out that from there it gets much easier, since a 20% improvement in energy density would deliver around a 100% increase in range, since the same amount of energy is still used to get the plane to altitude, and that's the hard bit, so all of the extra energy is available for range, which is less energy intensive.

Really promising stuff, and I assume a quieter flight with less NVH ....... give or take the turbulence.

CKhalvashi

Martyn1981 said:

CKhalvashi said:

Martyn1981 said:

shinytop said:

Martyn1981 said:

Progress on 'Alice' the 9 seater BEV airplane.

Eviation Rolls Out 100% Electric Airplane Alice’s Production Version

Was the company’s plan too ambitious? Seemingly not. In November 2020, Eviation said it was indeed on track to deliver its first Alice electric airplanes to customer in 2022. Yes, that customer is still Cape Air, which is a regional aircraft carrier in New England, USA. Steve Hanley provided an update on the dream of the electric aviation startup. “Alice is built for regional flights up to 650 miles at a cruising speed of 276 mph. That covers journeys like from San Jose to San Diego or London to Prague. While conventional planes fly faster, electric planes like Alice are 2 to 3 orders of magnitude quieter than commercial jet aircraft and could use shorter runways. Those factors mean they can fly into and out of smaller airports that are closer to travelers’ final destinations.”

“‘I think it’s important that the industry looks at its responsibilities to the planet and makes itself more sustainable in terms of emissions, but it needs to work economically,’ Bar-Yohay says. Alice costs about $200 per flight hour to operate. A turboprop with similar performance costs between $1,200 and $2,000 per flight hour, meaning ticket prices for Alice could be substantially less than those for conventional aircraft. Lots of people might be delighted to add an hour or two to their flight if they can fly for half the money.”

All of that background brings us to this month’s news. A production version of Alice has been finalized. Eviation is approaching the runway! Its first flight is planned for later this year, and the goal remains to deliver the first customer planes to Cape Air in 2022 — next year.

Though, apparently, Cape Air also needs some time with the plane itself and use in commercial service is not expected until 2024.

Very interesting. I wonder if the economics will work.  It suggests a turboprop costs 6-10 times the E plane to operate.  Does that include the purchase cost? An ICE car certainly doesn't cost 6-12 times as much as an EV to operate.  I also worry about the staff costs; a pilot per 9 passengers is a lot more than currently and there are a lot of other industry costs that are per aircraft rather than per passenger.  

It is good to see a move to smaller, lighter vehicles; it's a shame the BEV industry isn't going ther same way. 

Only my interpretation, but I read this:

Alice costs about $200 per flight hour to operate. A turboprop with similar performance costs between $1,200 and $2,000 per flight hour,

to mean the fuel and maintenance cost per hr of flight, and since it's a comparison of 'similar performance' I also assume that  the crew will be the same/similar.

Again only my opinion, and a rough guess, but I'd say an ICE vehicle does cost around 6-10x* as much to operate per mile in terms of fuel and maintenance v's a BEV?

* I'm thinking leccy at say 4p/mile (but can be far cheaper), v's petrol/diesel at around 10-20p/mile (30 to 60mpg), then the higher servicing costs of the ICE/mile (remember a 10k mile service will cost ~2or3p/mile), and the much higher cost of wear and tear to brake pads, engine, gearbox, clutch, cooling, exhaust, all of which of course have a cost/mile. So 6-10x sounds sensible(ish) I think, but it's a very interesting question?

In theory, you'd be looking at SEP single pilot ops for something like this. In much of Eastern Europe, you'd be looking at as little as €20/hour for crew in this case.

Even in the UK, you won't be looking much more than £60/block, looking at the DH6 pilot scales at Loganair.

Under FAA rules, it's essential to hold a full ATPL for commercial ops, so the crew potentially could be more at the EE end of things than the UK, as something like this surely would be good for hour building.

Thanks, all fascinating. My own personal theory, so feel free to laugh at/dismiss it, is that shorter range electric flight, albeit with larger planes, could allow airports to operate longer hours, and therefore improve costs/profitability and reduce expansion needs.

As an aside, I notice the article talking about batteries with a power to weight of 400Wh/kg, and recall Elon Musk saying that 400Wh/kg was needed for short haul flights to 'take off' so to speak, opening the door to electric aircraft. But what really interested me, was when he pointed out that from there it gets much easier, since a 20% improvement in energy density would deliver around a 100% increase in range, since the same amount of energy is still used to get the plane to altitude, and that's the hard bit, so all of the extra energy is available for range, which is less energy intensive.

Really promising stuff, and I assume a quieter flight with less NVH ....... give or take the turbulence.

I think something like an ATR72 would be possible, not sure if you could replicate the range of the Dash 8. I've flown in May around 90 minute flight on the ATR (this particular model operated by Windrose) and had to say it's quite noisy, so in theory you are correct.

Ideally a 1000km range (which will do many domestic overnight layovers and most UK flights in 2 directions) needs to be possible for this type of aircraft. The ATR I'm informed from a forum I'm not a member of has approximately 600kg/h of fuel burn, so the short runs with frequent flights are where the demand is likely to be for this.

silverwhistle

I haven't flown since 2015 (apart from on three different helicopter types..) but that was Soton -Edinburgh where I'd quite happily accept a longer journey time for the environmental benefits and cheaper than rail prices. (The latter isn't difficult!).  Flying lower is also more interesting although nothing beats a helicopter at 1/200 feet!

What would be the refuelling speed, and would a standard turn-round allow much range to be added? I'd be concerned about the safety margin for diversions, although the short runway capability would open up more options.

CKhalvashi

silverwhistle said:

I haven't flown since 2015 (apart from on three different helicopter types..) but that was Soton -Edinburgh where I'd quite happily accept a longer journey time for the environmental benefits and cheaper than rail prices. (The latter isn't difficult!).  Flying lower is also more interesting although nothing beats a helicopter at 1/200 feet!

What would be the refuelling speed, and would a standard turn-round allow much range to be added? I'd be concerned about the safety margin for diversions, although the short runway capability would open up more options.

That's likely to be the issue for high-frequency operators.

I'm happy now that Google shows the emissions by flight, as I need to fly for work (I have interests in regulated industries, on some occasions AML requirements mean a physical presence is necessary and we have a preferred investment method of one through joint ventures to buy expertise, so especially at the early stages of a partnership it's important to be able to meet in person on request), but most of the time, I will go for the lower emission flight over the cheapest.

I'm also actively tracking emission outputs on myFR24 and note that my personal emissions from flying averaged around 8km/kg in 2019 and close to 9km/kg in 2020, and are currently 7.85km/kg in 2021, not helped by some domestic trips on an AN-24 to avoid 28 hours round trip on trains for a single meeting.

We are also actively considering a rule of not reimbursing for flights where a suitable alternative exists for any long distance journey under 500km. Such journeys are 11 of the flights I've taken since 2017, however I note that 7 of these were to gain visa-free access to a country that would otherwise require a visa, 2 are mentioned above and the other 2 were for similar reasons to above.

In short, for me personally at this time, being green is about gains in efficiency and an overall reduction in emissions until we have the technology to wipe those emissions out completely.

Martyn1981

Not sure where I'm going with this, trying to explain some confusion in my own head, but I read this article and it shows the continuing trend for the VW e-Up! to top the charts in Germany for sales this year.

I looked up the UK prices and after deducting the PIG they cost £21k (list price, no idea what deals are available), then I was hit with a left right combo - that sounds like a decent price for a ~160 miles BEV, and, OMG £21k for a small car.

Clearly my head still hasn't fully adjusted to the new reality of higher purchase costs v's lower running costs, but, and it's a big BUT, if that's the price for a 'modified' ICEV, not a purpose built BEV platform, then doesn't that auger really well, for say a £15k  small BEV in the near future, even from brands with reputations for higher quality and prices?

As I said, not sure where I'm going with this, but something is tickling my synapses and suggesting there is some very good news here, or at least in the short (certainly medium) term.

Tesla Model 3 Is #1 Electric Car In Germany In June, VW E-Up Remains 2021 Leader

Regarding the 2021 table, the small Volkswagen e-Up is comfortable in the leadership position, so the veteran EV is currently the favorite for the 2021 Best Seller award. (Who would’ve guessed it a few years ago?)

ABrass

Martyn1981 said:

Not sure where I'm going with this, trying to explain some confusion in my own head, but I read this article and it shows the continuing trend for the VW e-Up! to top the charts in Germany for sales this year.

I looked up the UK prices and after deducting the PIG they cost £21k (list price, no idea what deals are available), then I was hit with a left right combo - that sounds like a decent price for a ~160 miles BEV, and, OMG £21k for a small car.

Clearly my head still hasn't fully adjusted to the new reality of higher purchase costs v's lower running costs, but, and it's a big BUT, if that's the price for a 'modified' ICEV, not a purpose built BEV platform, then doesn't that auger really well, for say a £15k  small BEV in the near future, even from brands with reputations for higher quality and prices?

As I said, not sure where I'm going with this, but something is tickling my synapses and suggesting there is some very good news here, or at least in the short (certainly medium) term.

Tesla Model 3 Is #1 Electric Car In Germany In June, VW E-Up Remains 2021 Leader

Regarding the 2021 table, the small Volkswagen e-Up is comfortable in the leadership position, so the veteran EV is currently the favorite for the 2021 Best Seller award. (Who would’ve guessed it a few years ago?)

The eUP is an example of the improving price of electric vehicles. The original model had half the battery and cost €26,900 the new 2019 one costs €21,500.

In six years they doubled the range and cut the price by €5,000, even whilst only making tiny numbers.

With a purpose built EV the cost should drop further, especially if they start producing in bulk.

CKhalvashi

Martyn, I've gone with the mindset of range vs price in thinking, naturally discounting anything that won't be suitable for the needs any vehicle is bought for. There are a number of outliers in pricing this way when also considering size, making everything more strange at this time.

I'd consider £21k for the e-UP! to be reasonable value when pitted against the Smart for similar money, with around double the range and twice as many seats. A similar range and a bit more money got me the Ioniq, which sits roughly in the same cost difference between the UP! and a Focus or similar, despite being (seeming at least) a bit bigger. The e-UP! can be pitted competitively against the Fiat 500 in this segment.

I personally think Mercedes have got the Vito wrong in this by not offering the dual cab van with 3.5t upgrade (and the bigger battery pack) as at the right price, this is where our needs would be met perfectly. That said, I also think Mercedes have got the price points of their commercial vehicle range completely wrong when switching to electric, but haven't necessarily got the price points wrong of their cars.

michaels

I think one of the Stellantis people carrier EVs recently saw a 14k price cut to bring it in under the 35k UK govt grant level - the point being that I suspect there is a fair bit of 'kite flying' going on with EV pricing - if you make a car that based on the build cost should go for 15k but due to lower running costs, access to low emissions zones and scarcity you can sell it for 21k then of course you are going to price it at 21k....