Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

Hopefully when Toyota join the EV party things will improve.

I doubt it - given how poor my experience of a Toyota hybrid was and, with the understanding / expectation that they were the leaders in that field, it juts made me say "never again".

I hope that, when I switch to EV from ICE, it will be a success and my only regret will be not doing so earlier.

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

Hopefully when Toyota join the EV party things will improve.

I doubt it - given how poor my experience of a Toyota hybrid was and, with the understanding / expectation that they were the leaders in that field, it juts made me say "never again".

I hope that, when I switch to EV from ICE, it will be a success and my only regret will be not doing so earlier.

But were the hybrid issues something widely discussed in forums and reported in the press or was it just your personal experience? What specifically were the issues? Would they have been as obvious from testing as the EV issues I listed?

I had a Toyota for 9 years and it never missed a beat.

JKenH

michaels said:

And yet the original Nissan leaf is one of the most reliable cars on the road so it is not impossible. Phantom breaking etc relates to automation which is platform agnostic.

The problem with the Toyota approach is that you leave a lot of room in the market for your competitors and new entrants to get there first and you then need to win back the market share which is a lot harder than holding onto existing brand customers.

Yes the Leaf is well built but Rapidgate was foreseeable with only a minimum of testing yet Nissan still released the car. Phantom braking in the Tesla, ditto. 

Are other cars reporting phantom braking issues as frequently as Tesla? I have previously reported that my Leaf is not affected by oncoming vehicles on left hand bends nor have I had any other phantom braking issues. Bjorn Nyland who is very much a Tesla fan is always complaining of phantom braking issues with Teslas but not other vehicles he tests (at least not on the videos I have watched). I am not convinced it is platform agnostic. 

The argument is frequently made that Tesla is collecting millions (billions?) of miles of driving data which is being processed by its computers giving it a huge advantage in self driving yet it still has not solved the phantom braking issue.

Edit: while doing the washing up I realised that what you might have meant when referring to platform agnostic was it didn’t matter whether it was ICE or EV, not whose platform it was.

EVandPV

Grumpy_chap said:

I hope that, when I switch to EV from ICE, it will be a success and my only regret will be not doing so earlier.

That's certainly been my experience after 2 years with the Zoe.
Sure, it doesn't have anywhere near the level of tech a Tesla has but it's still so much nicer to drive than any ICE I've ever driven. 
That seems to be pretty common feedback from first time EV owners.

Not had any issues with range or range anxiety and now charge 100% at home although admittedly, I couldn't tell you the last time I drove more than 120 miles in a day.

You'd genuinely have to pay me (a lot) to go back to an ICE.

JKenH

EVandPV said:

Grumpy_chap said:

I hope that, when I switch to EV from ICE, it will be a success and my only regret will be not doing so earlier.

That's certainly been my experience after 2 years with the Zoe.
Sure, it doesn't have anywhere near the level of tech a Tesla has but it's still so much nicer to drive than any ICE I've ever driven. 
That seems to be pretty common feedback from first time EV owners.

Not had any issues with range or range anxiety and now charge 100% at home although admittedly, I couldn't tell you the last time I drove more than 120 miles in a day.

You'd genuinely have to pay me (a lot) to go back to an ICE.

There has been quite a lot on the SpeakEV forum about the Zoe being very sensitive to chargers and refusing to charge on some AC chargers that other cars cope with fine. Perhaps if you just charge at home you haven’t encountered this problem. Again some real world testing by Renault would have sorted this issue before the car went out to the public. I don’t know if any modifications have been done by Renault but there does seem to be a generally dismissive attitude by manufacturers to customers pointing out their cars don’t work properly. 

Edit: here is a work round in case you do encounter the problem.
https://fuelincluded.com/2016/10/renault-zoe-battery-charging-impossible-bci/

michaels

JKenH said:

michaels said:

And yet the original Nissan leaf is one of the most reliable cars on the road so it is not impossible. Phantom breaking etc relates to automation which is platform agnostic.

The problem with the Toyota approach is that you leave a lot of room in the market for your competitors and new entrants to get there first and you then need to win back the market share which is a lot harder than holding onto existing brand customers.

Yes the Leaf is well built but Rapidgate was foreseeable with only a minimum of testing yet Nissan still released the car. Phantom braking in the Tesla, ditto. 

Are other cars reporting phantom braking issues as frequently as Tesla? I have previously reported that my Leaf is not affected by oncoming vehicles on left hand bends nor have I had any other phantom braking issues. Bjorn Nyland who is very much a Tesla fan is always complaining of phantom braking issues with Teslas but not other vehicles he tests (at least not on the videos I have watched). I am not convinced it is platform agnostic. 

The argument is frequently made that Tesla is collecting millions (billions?) of miles of driving data which is being processed by its computers giving it a huge advantage in self driving yet it still has not solved the phantom braking issue.

Edit: while doing the washing up I realised that what you might have meant when referring to platform agnostic was it didn’t matter whether it was ICE or EV, not whose platform it was.

The original leaf which should have been the hardest didn't suffer rapidgate. I have heard stories of Nissan pro pilot (on any nissan vehicle) phantom breaking for cars in a turn left/slip road lane, no idea how common it is.

JKenH

michaels said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

And yet the original Nissan leaf is one of the most reliable cars on the road so it is not impossible. Phantom breaking etc relates to automation which is platform agnostic.

The problem with the Toyota approach is that you leave a lot of room in the market for your competitors and new entrants to get there first and you then need to win back the market share which is a lot harder than holding onto existing brand customers.

Yes the Leaf is well built but Rapidgate was foreseeable with only a minimum of testing yet Nissan still released the car. Phantom braking in the Tesla, ditto. 

Are other cars reporting phantom braking issues as frequently as Tesla? I have previously reported that my Leaf is not affected by oncoming vehicles on left hand bends nor have I had any other phantom braking issues. Bjorn Nyland who is very much a Tesla fan is always complaining of phantom braking issues with Teslas but not other vehicles he tests (at least not on the videos I have watched). I am not convinced it is platform agnostic. 

The argument is frequently made that Tesla is collecting millions (billions?) of miles of driving data which is being processed by its computers giving it a huge advantage in self driving yet it still has not solved the phantom braking issue.

Edit: while doing the washing up I realised that what you might have meant when referring to platform agnostic was it didn’t matter whether it was ICE or EV, not whose platform it was.

The original leaf which should have been the hardest didn't suffer rapidgate. I have heard stories of Nissan pro pilot (on any nissan vehicle) phantom breaking for cars in a turn left/slip road lane, no idea how common it is.

Yes, just looked that up on the internet. I hadn’t previously been aware. I saw reference to the Nissan Rogue and X-Trail, but not the Leaf so maybe they have different systems. 

When I typed “phantom braking” into Google it was page 6 before I came across a reference to Nissan so obviously it isn’t making the headlines like Tesla.

CKhalvashi

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

And yet the original Nissan leaf is one of the most reliable cars on the road so it is not impossible. Phantom breaking etc relates to automation which is platform agnostic.

The problem with the Toyota approach is that you leave a lot of room in the market for your competitors and new entrants to get there first and you then need to win back the market share which is a lot harder than holding onto existing brand customers.

Yes the Leaf is well built but Rapidgate was foreseeable with only a minimum of testing yet Nissan still released the car. Phantom braking in the Tesla, ditto. 

Are other cars reporting phantom braking issues as frequently as Tesla? I have previously reported that my Leaf is not affected by oncoming vehicles on left hand bends nor have I had any other phantom braking issues. Bjorn Nyland who is very much a Tesla fan is always complaining of phantom braking issues with Teslas but not other vehicles he tests (at least not on the videos I have watched). I am not convinced it is platform agnostic. 

The argument is frequently made that Tesla is collecting millions (billions?) of miles of driving data which is being processed by its computers giving it a huge advantage in self driving yet it still has not solved the phantom braking issue.

Edit: while doing the washing up I realised that what you might have meant when referring to platform agnostic was it didn’t matter whether it was ICE or EV, not whose platform it was.

The original leaf which should have been the hardest didn't suffer rapidgate. I have heard stories of Nissan pro pilot (on any nissan vehicle) phantom breaking for cars in a turn left/slip road lane, no idea how common it is.

Yes, just looked that up on the internet. I hadn’t previously been aware. When I typed “phantom braking” into Google it was page 6 before I came across a reference to Nissan so obviously it isn’t making the headlines like Tesla.

Although was this not an issue on certain Toyota models too several years ago?

Back about an hour ago, enough battery to pop to Tescos and the takeaway after getting home (about 12 miles in total), currently showing 11 miles, so waiting 2 hours to plug it in for cheap electricity (meter is low cost on 22-05GMT).

264 miles today, around 250 of them on 60-70mph roads, proving IMO that the current 'mainstream' BEV models are suitable for most applications with the correct infrastructure available.

EricMears

JKenH said:

 Rapidgate was foreseeable with only a minimum of testing yet Nissan still released the car.

'Rapidgate ' usually only happens after a third rapid charge the same day.  I had a 40 kWh Leaf for a couple of years and was never affected - but OTOH  never actually needed a fourth rapid without a very long 'rest'.  Not had the opportunity for doing very long journeys in my 62kWh model but don't anticipate experiencing this problem.

JKenH

CKhalvashi said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

And yet the original Nissan leaf is one of the most reliable cars on the road so it is not impossible. Phantom breaking etc relates to automation which is platform agnostic.

The problem with the Toyota approach is that you leave a lot of room in the market for your competitors and new entrants to get there first and you then need to win back the market share which is a lot harder than holding onto existing brand customers.

Yes the Leaf is well built but Rapidgate was foreseeable with only a minimum of testing yet Nissan still released the car. Phantom braking in the Tesla, ditto. 

Are other cars reporting phantom braking issues as frequently as Tesla? I have previously reported that my Leaf is not affected by oncoming vehicles on left hand bends nor have I had any other phantom braking issues. Bjorn Nyland who is very much a Tesla fan is always complaining of phantom braking issues with Teslas but not other vehicles he tests (at least not on the videos I have watched). I am not convinced it is platform agnostic. 

The argument is frequently made that Tesla is collecting millions (billions?) of miles of driving data which is being processed by its computers giving it a huge advantage in self driving yet it still has not solved the phantom braking issue.

Edit: while doing the washing up I realised that what you might have meant when referring to platform agnostic was it didn’t matter whether it was ICE or EV, not whose platform it was.

The original leaf which should have been the hardest didn't suffer rapidgate. I have heard stories of Nissan pro pilot (on any nissan vehicle) phantom breaking for cars in a turn left/slip road lane, no idea how common it is.

Yes, just looked that up on the internet. I hadn’t previously been aware. When I typed “phantom braking” into Google it was page 6 before I came across a reference to Nissan so obviously it isn’t making the headlines like Tesla.

Although was this not an issue on certain Toyota models too several years ago?

Probably; most manufacturers have had some cases reported of phantom braking but  a search for “Toyota phantom braking” doesn’t throw much up  (and I didn’t find any specific incidents) compared to a general search for “phantom braking” which is dominated by links involving Tesla vehicle owners reporting the issue. It seems the Tesla problems are related to TACC/Autopilot and occur frequently for many users while other manufacturers have had reports relating to AEB systems. 

The issue for Tesla is the sheer volume and frequency of phantom braking incidents being reported, even if they are less severe and less dangerous than other braking issues. The impression gained, rightly or wrongly, is that most M3 owners will experience phantom braking at some point. It isn’t really about safety in Tesla’s case, more a niggle that something disconcerting is frequently happening which shouldn’t happen. 

Driving on your own no doubt you take it in your stride but it’s the impression it leaves on a passenger about the car you drive or your driving. (I used to have a very old car once which would randomly blow the horn as I turned the wheel - not dangerous but really embarrassing.)