Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

silverwhistle

If you don't have a home charger you aren't going to charge with Ionity, but the point still stands and you'll be aware as an EV driver of the talk on the forums on this very topic and how for many they'd be a last resort. It seems that they are only thinking of the expense account drivers with expensive, fast charging cars.

I was doing some fantasy holiday planning in front of the fire, as you do in the middle of a Covid winter.., and looking at charging in France on their autoroutes sent me scurrying to alternatives. If I do take my MG over there, and particularly if aiming for Italy there'll be an awful lot of planning involved, maybe with a hotel, or more importantly, a restaurant guide to hand!

Solarchaser

JKenH said:

The true cost of charging an electric car using public chargers revealed

As I pointed out a few days ago if you don’t have access to home charging the cost of fuelling an EV can be as high as an ICEV (or higher if you choose the wrong public charger). 

In fact, using the Ionity charger takes away one of the big advantages of EVs: that they’re usually cheaper to run than their conventionally powered counterparts. Based on What Car?’s True MPG fuel economy figures, a diesel Audi Q750 TDI averages 27.2mpg, and that means it costs 22 pence per mile to drive. When exclusively using Ionity chargers, the similar-sized E-tron costs 34 pence per mile.

https://www.whatcar.com/news/the-true-cost-of-charging-an-electric-car-using-public-chargers-revealed/n21008

I see they also filled up the audi diesel on only the most expensive motorway forecourts too..... oh, no they didn't.

It's pretty typical of articles these days.
Weirdly half way through it showed a lidl charger, which in England are free to use, but didn't explore the fact that using a lidl fast charger, or a parking bay slow charger as you do your shopping would lead to a free charge. 

Or the incentives to workplaces to install chargers for employees so they can charge for free at work.

Disappointing but not surprising 

JKenH

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

The true cost of charging an electric car using public chargers revealed

As I pointed out a few days ago if you don’t have access to home charging the cost of fuelling an EV can be as high as an ICEV (or higher if you choose the wrong public charger). 

In fact, using the Ionity charger takes away one of the big advantages of EVs: that they’re usually cheaper to run than their conventionally powered counterparts. Based on What Car?’s True MPG fuel economy figures, a diesel Audi Q750 TDI averages 27.2mpg, and that means it costs 22 pence per mile to drive. When exclusively using Ionity chargers, the similar-sized E-tron costs 34 pence per mile.

https://www.whatcar.com/news/the-true-cost-of-charging-an-electric-car-using-public-chargers-revealed/n21008

I see they also filled up the audi diesel on only the most expensive motorway forecourts too..... oh, no they didn't.

It's pretty typical of articles these days.
Weirdly half way through it showed a lidl charger, which in England are free to use, but didn't explore the fact that using a lidl fast charger, or a parking bay slow charger as you do your shopping would lead to a free charge. 

Or the incentives to workplaces to install chargers for employees so they can charge for free at work.

Disappointing but not surprising 

Am I just confused by your terminology or is it a while since you used a Lidl DC charger?You refer to two different charger speeds at Lidl as fast and slow. Did you mean rapid (DC) and fast (AC) or two types of AC charger? The rapid chargers at Lidl have been subject to a charge in England of 23p/kwh for over a year now. 

There may be some forward thinking organisations that have installed workplace chargers but in my own (you may say limited) experience I haven’t come across anyone with an EV who can access one. The incentives may be in place but how high is the take up?

Fast 7kw public charging is great if you have an EV and are out shopping and get a free top up but the reality is they are often occupied, out of order or ICE’d. It also takes several hours to get a full charge in so not ideal if you don’t have a charger at home as well. When we go to Tesco at this time of year we usually get enough charge to cover just one leg of the trip. In England I suspect retail parks/supermarkets with available chargers are the exception rather than the rule. 

Two other contributors to this thread have moved to Tesla from other EVs and  I wonder if the Tesla charging network was a  significant factor? 

I suspect you are writing as someone who appreciates the advantages of an EV as a second car but living with one as an only car needs a much greater commitment and a lot of spare time. It’s fine for me as I am retired but if I were still working it wouldn’t be practical even though I can charge at home (unless I went for a Tesla perhaps).

Perhaps Scotland is different.

Martyn1981

Free (AC) charge at our Tesco's for about 45mins works out at ~20 miles, so about a 15 mile gain, or I suppose a 20 mile gain, since the trip is part of life. Sainsbury's would be about 1 mile each way, but no freebies there yet.
Of course workplace chargers exist, some charge, some free, some simply a handy socket in the wall. Already thought of 4 examples just from close family, neighbours and close forum friends.
Yes the Tesla supercharger network is a bonus, if worried about range anxiety, but that's for long distance driving and therefore costs, so is no different to the other chargers in the 20-30p/kWh range. The main reason for buying a Tesla is the 33% discount you get v's the cost of anything comparable ....... and sub 4s 0-60's (of course).

Maybe there's a market for a petrol only car that pretends to be an EV, so it never needs to be plugged in?

I'm reminded of all the negativity that PV and wind got in the first half of the 2010's, and the negativity that the basic idea of a BEV got in the second half. Demand, supply, and the markets will deliver on this, perhaps too slow, perhaps fast enough, but when people want something, someone will find a way to supply it.

JKenH

I am as big a fan of BEVs as anyone else on here but I don’t pretend that everything in the charging arena is rosey. I sing the praises of EVs to everyone I meet but I am also realistic enough to say to some of my working friends that in practical terms they are better off with their ICEVs given their particular situation.

There was a very good reason I got rid of my 2017 Golf and 2015 Mercedes. I just didn’t want to drive them anymore once I got a Leaf. Not everyone feels that strongly and I accept that. 

I have had some less than satisfactory charging experiences (adding significant time to a normal journey) but put up with them because I don’t need to use rapids that often. If I had kids on board or regularly needed to make a meeting on time it would be a different story. 

EVs are appearing on our streets in significant numbers now and the roll out of chargers is not keeping up. The ones that are out there are not sufficiently reliable. I cannot recall ever arriving at a petrol station and being unable to get fuel but it has happened to me on several occasions in my BEV. That simply isn’t good enough and neither is the EV fanboy excuse that its one’s own fault for not planning an alternative. 

To get widespread acceptance of EVs as an only car, people want to be able to drive 200 miles at 70mph in winter and also know they can just turn up at a charger and be guaranteed to be able to get a charge. Is that unreasonable? Is it any more unreasonable for a motoring publication to highlight the shortcomings of EV range and the charging network than to point out what real world mileages are from ICEVs? 

We are EV enthusiasts but if we aren’t realistic we will just be seen as fanboys, unable to acknowledge any drawbacks with the technology we love and we then lose all credibility. 

Solarchaser

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

The true cost of charging an electric car using public chargers revealed

As I pointed out a few days ago if you don’t have access to home charging the cost of fuelling an EV can be as high as an ICEV (or higher if you choose the wrong public charger). 

In fact, using the Ionity charger takes away one of the big advantages of EVs: that they’re usually cheaper to run than their conventionally powered counterparts. Based on What Car?’s True MPG fuel economy figures, a diesel Audi Q750 TDI averages 27.2mpg, and that means it costs 22 pence per mile to drive. When exclusively using Ionity chargers, the similar-sized E-tron costs 34 pence per mile.

https://www.whatcar.com/news/the-true-cost-of-charging-an-electric-car-using-public-chargers-revealed/n21008

I see they also filled up the audi diesel on only the most expensive motorway forecourts too..... oh, no they didn't.

It's pretty typical of articles these days.
Weirdly half way through it showed a lidl charger, which in England are free to use, but didn't explore the fact that using a lidl fast charger, or a parking bay slow charger as you do your shopping would lead to a free charge. 

Or the incentives to workplaces to install chargers for employees so they can charge for free at work.

Disappointing but not surprising 

Am I just confused by your terminology or is it a while since you used a Lidl DC charger?You refer to two different charger speeds at Lidl as fast and slow. Did you mean rapid (DC) and fast (AC) or two types of AC charger? The rapid chargers at Lidl have been subject to a charge in England of 23p/kwh for over a year now. 

There may be some forward thinking organisations that have installed workplace chargers but in my own (you may say limited) experience I haven’t come across anyone with an EV who can access one. The incentives may be in place but how high is the take up?

Fast 7kw public charging is great if you have an EV and are out shopping and get a free top up but the reality is they are often occupied, out of order or ICE’d. It also takes several hours to get a full charge in so not ideal if you don’t have a charger at home as well. When we go to Tesco at this time of year we usually get enough charge to cover just one leg of the trip. In England I suspect retail parks/supermarkets with available chargers are the exception rather than the rule. 

Two other contributors to this thread have moved to Tesla from other EVs and  I wonder if the Tesla charging network was a  significant factor? 

I suspect you are writing as someone who appreciates the advantages of an EV as a second car but living with one as an only car needs a much greater commitment and a lot of spare time. It’s fine for me as I am retired but if I were still working it wouldn’t be practical even though I can charge at home (unless I went for a Tesla perhaps).

Perhaps Scotland is different.

My apologies for my lack of proper terminology,  quite poor of me.
When touring England in the leaf, approximately 18 month's ago which is indeed our family car.
(I own another "track" car and have a company car which I do not use privately )
We used several English chargers on multiple networks. (Polar, now taken over by BP, were by far the worst/ most hassle)

At the time I used several lidl chargers,  both ac and dc were completely free, I understood that was to forever be the case,  but clearly that's not the case as you state they now charge for useage. (Though from what you say, for quite a bit less than your link suggested everyone would pay ionity)

Your reality of the chargers being iced, out of order or already used, what can I say, its not been my reality.
Only once have I NEEDED a charge and had to wait 30 mins to get that, it was I think Keele services, as someone was already using both cha de mo chargers.
I've seen a couple broken, and once a whole network down, but never not been able to get a charge.

As I drive all over Scotland, and (usually northern) England for work I probably have more exposure to the variation than you have as a retired gent, and in short,  yeah Scotland is different, id say about 40% of the sites I regularly visit around Scotland now have ac charge points, vs maybe 10% in England.

As for workplace, yes my workplace (based in England) has a couple, and the old place they moved from had a couple also.

I am invested in this as I'm actively petitioning my employer to supply an EV as the work car (current deisel should have went back over a year ago, been holding back to hopefullysecure an ev) and so I've been mentally noting all of the places I can get a top up from, it's not unusual for me to drive 300 miles in a day, so top ups are likely to be needed.
The diesel does 700 miles on a tank, so definitely more topping up will be needed for me.

Finally re. The ev as a main car needing alot more time, I couldn't disagree more.
The leaf has been flawless, I've spent no time working on it, servicing etc, whereas I'd have expected to have spent at least a handful of weekends on an ice car by now.

Touching wood no suspension components fail lol.

JKenH

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

The true cost of charging an electric car using public chargers revealed

As I pointed out a few days ago if you don’t have access to home charging the cost of fuelling an EV can be as high as an ICEV (or higher if you choose the wrong public charger). 

In fact, using the Ionity charger takes away one of the big advantages of EVs: that they’re usually cheaper to run than their conventionally powered counterparts. Based on What Car?’s True MPG fuel economy figures, a diesel Audi Q750 TDI averages 27.2mpg, and that means it costs 22 pence per mile to drive. When exclusively using Ionity chargers, the similar-sized E-tron costs 34 pence per mile.

https://www.whatcar.com/news/the-true-cost-of-charging-an-electric-car-using-public-chargers-revealed/n21008

I see they also filled up the audi diesel on only the most expensive motorway forecourts too..... oh, no they didn't.

It's pretty typical of articles these days.
Weirdly half way through it showed a lidl charger, which in England are free to use, but didn't explore the fact that using a lidl fast charger, or a parking bay slow charger as you do your shopping would lead to a free charge. 

Or the incentives to workplaces to install chargers for employees so they can charge for free at work.

Disappointing but not surprising 

Am I just confused by your terminology or is it a while since you used a Lidl DC charger?You refer to two different charger speeds at Lidl as fast and slow. Did you mean rapid (DC) and fast (AC) or two types of AC charger? The rapid chargers at Lidl have been subject to a charge in England of 23p/kwh for over a year now. 

There may be some forward thinking organisations that have installed workplace chargers but in my own (you may say limited) experience I haven’t come across anyone with an EV who can access one. The incentives may be in place but how high is the take up?

Fast 7kw public charging is great if you have an EV and are out shopping and get a free top up but the reality is they are often occupied, out of order or ICE’d. It also takes several hours to get a full charge in so not ideal if you don’t have a charger at home as well. When we go to Tesco at this time of year we usually get enough charge to cover just one leg of the trip. In England I suspect retail parks/supermarkets with available chargers are the exception rather than the rule. 

Two other contributors to this thread have moved to Tesla from other EVs and  I wonder if the Tesla charging network was a  significant factor? 

I suspect you are writing as someone who appreciates the advantages of an EV as a second car but living with one as an only car needs a much greater commitment and a lot of spare time. It’s fine for me as I am retired but if I were still working it wouldn’t be practical even though I can charge at home (unless I went for a Tesla perhaps).

Perhaps Scotland is different.

My apologies for my lack of proper terminology,  quite poor of me.
When touring England in the leaf, approximately 18 month's ago which is indeed our family car.
(I own another "track" car and have a company car which I do not use privately )
We used several English chargers on multiple networks. (Polar, now taken over by BP, were by far the worst/ most hassle)

At the time I used several lidl chargers,  both ac and dc were completely free, I understood that was to forever be the case,  but clearly that's not the case as you state they now charge for useage. (Though from what you say, for quite a bit less than your link suggested everyone would pay ionity)

Your reality of the chargers being iced, out of order or already used, what can I say, its not been my reality.
Only once have I NEEDED a charge and had to wait 30 mins to get that, it was I think Keele services, as someone was already using both cha de mo chargers.
I've seen a couple broken, and once a whole network down, but never not been able to get a charge.

As I drive all over Scotland, and (usually northern) England for work I probably have more exposure to the variation than you have as a retired gent, and in short,  yeah Scotland is different, id say about 40% of the sites I regularly visit around Scotland now have ac charge points, vs maybe 10% in England.

As for workplace, yes my workplace (based in England) has a couple, and the old place they moved from had a couple also.

I am invested in this as I'm actively petitioning my employer to supply an EV as the work car (current deisel should have went back over a year ago, been holding back to hopefullysecure an ev) and so I've been mentally noting all of the places I can get a top up from, it's not unusual for me to drive 300 miles in a day, so top ups are likely to be needed.
The diesel does 700 miles on a tank, so definitely more topping up will be needed for me.

Finally re. The ev as a main car needing alot more time, I couldn't disagree more.
The leaf has been flawless, I've spent no time working on it, servicing etc, whereas I'd have expected to have spent at least a handful of weekends on an ice car by now.

Touching wood no suspension components fail lol.

Fair comment. 

The time I referred to was actually in relation to charging, be it hunting round for a working charger or trying to get the one I had plugged into working (phone calls to Polar - yes they are the worst in my view as well) or crawling round trying to make it to the next charger. I have had some pleasant experiences as well including turning up at an HEVRA garage without the right app and them starting and stopping the charge for me after they’d moved a couple of cars to get me in. The Alfapower charger was a bit slow (max 25kw) so the charge took almost an hour but that was made up for by them giving my wife and I tea and biscuits. 

JKenH

Renault restructure shows how the big car makers are having to adapt to survive

I have posted this just for the observation below. (No need to read the rest of the article.)

The other issue is profitability on electric vehicles. De Meo claims that the profit margin on the EV Zoe is greater than that on a conventional Clio supermini (“which is also profitable”).


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/news/renault-restructure-shows-big-car-makers-having-adapt-survive/

JKenH

GM teams up with Microsoft as electric car market revs

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210119-gm-teams-up-with-microsoft-as-electric-car-market-revs

JKenH

Audi to make electric cars with China's oldest carmaker FAW

I thought this statistic was interesting.

According to the International Energy Agency, there were 7.2 million electric cars on the road globally by 2019, with 47% of them in China.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55728337