Is this worth fighting? PPS Helston

didgeridoooo

Glad you agree, and glad I forced myself to ignore my wife's comments "loads of clear signs, its my own fault" and watch the clip taken by my son! Being really honest, I think she is behaving exactly how these swines like people to behave, i.e. self-deprecating by default, the perfect rip off Britain consumer. She i down, annoyed at herself, and feeling generally bad. Basically feeling a fool caused her to decide she 'deserves' it and should pay up. Silly I know, and no doubt accounts for several million pounds a year to PPC scum bags.

She will go back and get a much better, 1080p version with better filming and slower entry. That, I would hope, could be submitted as evidence and makes this worth fighting for me now.

Council - I tried looking today but all I could find was historic pictures on google earth showing it definitely was council owned, versus a check of Council pages for car parks in Cornwall and this one isn't mentioned. It was called Cattle Market Car Park before, under the Council, which also confused my wife a bit until we realised it has changed name to Coronation Car Park. Picture below was taken from street view in 2016. Maybe this could still be argued as frustration of contract, insofar as she was used to parking there, and the changes in signage were not sufficient to cause her to change her default behaviour learned from old council attendants as already mentioned. That's not to mention lack of clear ANPR advertisement.

thanks again CM. The embers are glowing brighter now on this.

Coupon-mad

Yes that's what I found too, that old sign, and I agree she CAN argue the way you are suggesting. You need some light shed on who owns what and when it changed, and if there is still a 'live' Council Traffic Order at that site.

Send an email to Cornwall Council's Highways Dept asking for:

- a copy of the Parking Places Order that used to apply to Cattle Market Car Park, Helston, for which that sign applied

- when was the Parking Places order revoked, or has it never been revoked?

- was the parking operated on a decriminalised basis under the Traffic Management Act when the Council ran it, or were byelaws or Excess Charges applied instead?

- when was the site sold, transferred or leased and does the Council in fact still own the site?

- a copy of the lease, sale document or transfer deed, including any clauses or restrictions or covenants about a third party operating a car park there

- copies of minutes of meetings or any other documents relating to the decision to sell, transfer or lease this location to a private company, and/or appoint a private company to run the parking there if this was a contract made by the Council, and a copy of that contract.

didgeridoooo

Wow, thank you so much for that. I need to read up on CTOs and all that stuff, sounds like a whole new area I will need to get conversant with to make a convincing argument. But I will get that info requested straight away. Will have to convince wife we are fighting this one, as no doubt the council will take about 3 years to respond

Excellent stuff, I am really grateful for this info

PS - I am not sure if I should mention the FOIA for this, will throw it in just for good measure


PPS - For anyone who may happen across this thread seeking similar info:

https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/council-and-democracy/contacting-the-council/contact-us-online/contact-the-roads-transport-and-parking-service/

didgeridoooo

Well my wife went back there yesterday to get better footage and stills of signage. I am feeling both positive and negative about it now.

Here is a link to the pictures https://my.armored.net/index.php/s/EG8QeAD8RAxJLyp - Password is couponsane

My thoughts:

1. I don't think there is enough difference between old signage under Council, and new. In fact the new signage, especially on entry, is less obtrusive/obvious than the old one, which would easily lead (as it did) to a driver not noticing any change.

2. It does mention ANPR tech in use. But it also says enforcement patrols, which is BS. (not that we could prove its BS).

3. Oddly, it appears to purport to be a charity venture?!?!?! Helping the community, HA HA HA, !!!!!!?

4. Contracting party - it seems very ambiguous to me, if not downright misleading. It does say managed by PPS, but it also says "Coronation Park Helston is operated by South Kerrier Alliance CIC" - This was always known (and still is) as Coronation Park, that's what people visit when they park here (skateboard ramps and paths, nice park).

All in all, as much as I detest the thought of paying, my wife still wants to pay as we have 7 of these all going to court now, and she fears (rightly) that it will be extremely stressful and difficult with kids etc, to get to all thesee hearings. With this one being escapable for £60, all things considered, and as gut-wrenching as it is, it's probably worth it to just wipe away one more stress, defence and WS, hearing etc etc.

Still mulling it over, we have until Friday and we are away to visit a poorly relative on Friday so things are very pushed here. I will decide tonight or tomorrow, but in the mean time, if you (CM) could just impart your realistic thoughts on this after seeing the evidence, I would be very grateful as that will be key to our decision. Thanks so much for the support and comments.

Coupon-mad

Oddly, it appears to purport to be a charity venture?!?!?! Helping the community, HA HA HA, !!!!!!?

''all preceeds from parking fees go towards the upkeep of the park'' or some such lie.

There is nothing to tell a victim that in fact the £100 is not part of that, and goes to PPS. Send an email objecting about all of this to

info@theoldcattlemarket.co.uk

I don't think there is enough difference between old signage under Council, and new. In fact the new signage, especially on entry, is less obtrusive/obvious than the old one, which would easily lead (as it did) to a driver not noticing any change.

I agree. The machines are not obvious either, I don't think I saw a single one or an arrow pointing to it.

Contracting party - it seems very ambiguous to me, if not downright misleading. It does say managed by PPS, but it also says "Coronation Park Helston is operated by South Kerrier Alliance CIC" - This was always known (and still is) as Coronation Park, that's what people visit when they park here (skateboard ramps and paths, nice park).

Agreed, and it needs to be crystal clear as this is such a fundamental change.

Then you have the point I was getting at, that there MIGHT still be a Parking Places Order in force if the Council never ended it. In which case this sort of private enforcement is at odds with an extant Traffic Order and statutory control applies until the Order is rescinded.

didgeridoooo

Thank you so much CM, way beyond the call of duty that. Couple of points:

1. Email - Yes, I will send a snottogram.

2. There is one machine with arrow above - imgur.com/mKRZMRG

3. Council - I had a reply to my email to Highways:

"Thank you for your request for information dated 03 November 2019.

In order for us to complete your request and provide a response, we need to clarify the information that you require as we are not entirely clear on aspects of your request.

Please note that until we receive your response, we will not be able to start processing your request, and the 20 working day limit will not begin. If we do not receive a response to this letter within one month of the above date, we will assume that you no longer require this information. Otherwise we look forward to receiving your response and completing your request as soon as possible

Please note you may want to contact a solicitor for this data. We can process your request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 however under the Act responses are deemed to have been released ‘to the world’ and become Public Information. With this in mind it may be necessary for us to redact some of the Data in accordance with The Data Protection Act (DPA) and the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR).

If you require the data for a court case, you may obtain it, likely to be unredacted, with a Schedule 2 request via your Solicitor.

Please feel free to resubmit your FOI if you feel it necessary.

Thanks

Marc

Marc Allen | Information Management Advisor
Cornwall Council | Corporate & Information Governance | Assurance Service
[EMAIL="marc.allen@cornwall.gov.uk"]marc.allen@cornwall.gov.uk[/EMAIL] | Tel: 01872 322647 | Int: 492647
www.cornwall.gov.uk | ‘Onen hag oll’
4N, New County Hall, Treyew Road, Truro, Cornwall, TR1 3AY
Please note I do not work Mondays



P.S. My message to them:

To whom it may concern,

I require some information relating to Helston Coronation Car Park (formerly known as Cattle Market Car Park, Helston, when it was owned/managed by Cornwall Council). The information is required for a legal matter which will be going to court hearings in the near future, and is central to the case.

I would be grateful if you could please furnish me with the following information at your earliest convenience:

1. A copy of the Parking Places Order that used to apply to Cattle Market Car Park, Helston.

2. Has the Parking Places order been revoked? If so, when was it revoked?

3. Was the parking operated on a decriminalised basis under the Traffic Management Act when the Council ran it, or were byelaws or Excess Charges applied instead?

4. When was the site sold, transferred or leased and does the Council in fact still own the site?

5. A copy of the lease, sale document or transfer deed, including any clauses or restrictions or covenants about a third party operating a private car park there.

6. Copies of minutes of meetings or any other documents relating to the decision to sell, transfer or lease this location to a private company, and/or appoint a private company to run the parking there if this was a contract made by the Council, and a copy of that contract.

Your expedience in providing this information would be appreciated by all concerned. )

Le_Kirk

Well it couldn't have been clearer what you want. Are they stalling for time? Also they state they are not clear on some aspect of your request but then do not go on to say what aspects!!

didgeridoooo

Ha, you caught me just as I was hitting send! Couldn't agree more, what a pathetic response. Here is my reply:

I am confused by your email. What part of the specific questions didn’t you understand? Which information I asked for do you not understand? You didn’t even refer, so am I to assume you don’t understand any part of the request?

I do need it for a court case but I do not have a solicitor. Solicitors have no more authority than any average citizen, particularly when requesting information which is public domain or subject to FOIA. I have no idea how else to phrase my question, it was put together carefully and specifically requests each piece of information I seek. I would have to ask you to escalate this to someone who is knowledgeable or trained in such issues so as to act on my request, the information is held by the Council, and I am asking for it.

The Cattle Market Car Park was a Council run car park in Helston until recently, when the ticketing/fining/operating of it was taken over by ‘Premier Parking Solutions’. The information I require will dictate whether or not PPS has lawful authority to carry out its ‘scheme’ on the site. It is therefore crucial and fundamental to the legal issues of the case in which I am involved as Defendant. If you can not supply the information then you will be grossly prejudicing my ability to defend a court claim. I would therefore be forced to request a witness from the Council to answer the questions in court, as the Judge will need to know if the legal basis for the Claim is valid or not. This is obviously something I don’t wish to do, hence my request. It may be easier to pass my request to your legal department, they should have no trouble understanding what information I am requesting.

I need from the Council:

1. A copy of the Parking Places Order that used to apply to Cattle Market Car Park, Helston. (This is a legal document and will be on file.)

2. Has that Parking Places Order been revoked? If so, I need to know when it was revoked.

3. Was the parking operated on a 'decriminalised basis’ under the Traffic Management Act when the Council operated the car park, or were byelaws or Excess Charges applied instead? (This relates to the legal means by which the Council could enforce parking rules at the site, again I suspect your legal department could answer this easily.)

4. When was the site sold, transferred or leased and does the Council in fact still own the site? (I can’t think of any way to make this clearer.)

5. A copy of the lease, sale document or transfer deed, including any clauses or restrictions or covenants about a third party operating a private car park there. (Clear as a bell again. If the Council sold, transferred or leased the land/site to another entity, that will be covered by formal documents, and as the Council is funded purely from money raised from taxation, such documents should be available for scrutiny/viewing by any citizen.)

6. Copies of minutes of meetings or any other documents relating to the decision to sell, transfer or lease this location to a private company, and/or appoint a private company to run the parking there if this was a contract made by the Council, and a copy of that contract. (Again, I can’t make this clearer. If copies of minutes of meetings exist, I want a copy please, what is so hard to understand about this?)

I sincerely hope you will afford my request the attention it merits, or pass it to someone who will. I shouldn’t need to remind you that the Council has no right whatsoever to deny/ignore my lawful request for the information above, even if you are personally not able to understand what is a rather simple request, you are obliged to find someone who can. Otherwise my inalienable rights are not being respected, in fact they are being denied. I do hope that is not the case here but I am forced to wonder when you claim to not understand my request but refer to nothing specific, and ask nothing specific. I trust you will try a bit harder this time, or force me to take legal action against the Council itself, a prospect I do not relish but will most certainly undertake if the Council will not comply with a simple request for information required by me for a County Court hearing.

Thank you

Coupon-mad

Love it! There was nothing that needed clarifying about your email and a PPOrder is a public document that a LA has to provide to 'any interested party' without cost or delay.

It is your right to view any Traffic (or Parking Places, for car parks) Order.

didgeridoooo

I got this back in a matter of minutes:

"I think it may be easier to speak about the clarification letter as we don’t seem to have made our point clear. Please feel free to ring me directly, or provide a contact number and I will happily ring you back at your convenience.

Kind regards

Pete

Pete Cokell | Information Management Advisor
Cornwall Council | Corporate & Information Governance | Assurance Service
[EMAIL="peter.cokell@cornwall.gov.uk"]peter.cokell@cornwall.gov.uk[/EMAIL] Tel: 01872 322647
http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/ ‘Onen hag oll’
4N, County Hall, Treyew Road, Truro TR1 3AY
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