Is this worth fighting? PPS Helston

didgeridoooo

Hi, sorry for new thread, but a new NTK landed today.

My wife took the children to Helston Coronation car park. She has been using that car park for years, always as a Council run car park, by a skate park. She takes the children and they skateboard. She regularly chatted to the Council attendant who used to turn up in a van occasionally, at which point everyone would buy a ticket. All locals did that for a long time. No ANPR etc, just an occasional check when council van came by. She went a few weeks ago and did the same. She looked around and could not see any new signs, nothing had obviously changed so she followed her usual routine. Kids went on skateboard ramps, she entertained baby in the van, no council van turned up so she didn't pay.

To anyone who thinks that is immoral, firstly I have a few things to tell you about how Councils work, if you want to discuss morality, but more importantly, is the practice of the apparent new PPC in town any better? Moving on...


The NTK has ANPR photos. She will go back and check signage, but at this point she is almost certain that there were no such warning signs. So the PPC company have no doubt taken over, and 'accidentally' forgotten to inform motorists of the change of management and more importantly the ANPR usage at the location. How convenient, and I bet they are rubbing their hands in all the PCNs they earn while the locals learn about the change.



1. Is this worth fighting at all? I have never appealed to any of the so called independent outfits.


2. Is this practice worth taking up in court, i.e. lack of ANPR signs, contrary to IPC guidance I assume.


thanks.

Umkomaas

Hi, sorry for new thread, but a new NTK landed today.

How many of these things are you/your family going to rack up? Anything learned from the numbers you’ve already accumulated?

Surely with all the advice you received in your previous 320+ post thread (and other threads you’ve started) you know how to deal with this? If not (here we go again), the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1 is your first port of call.

There’s only so much we can cope with!

didgeridoooo

This car park was a council one. My wife "learned" from her direct experience on site there, she knew the attendant well and was 'unofficially' given the nod to do what she did, i.e. pull up and wait, paying if and when needed. It was not a private car park. This forum taught us a lot about private car parks. This wasn't one, and nothing indicated that it had ceased being one.



Newbie thread doesn't answer my question specifically relating to whether lack of ANPR signage is enough on its own to be worth fighting, as that's all we have here to argue on. I was hoping someone may know from experience a direct answer to that, i.e. "that don't fly", or "yes that got mine thrown out". That was all. Every thread is deemed a direct request for help from experts. I dont need that as IF i decide to fight it, I am well-versed on this thanks to many people and of course the Newbies thread. This was more a "community" post to see if other users (rather than experts/advisers) had experience either at this location very recently since the change, or in particular regarding fighting PURELY on the grounds of lack of ANPR signage. I haven't seen that answered in Newbie thread or anywhere else yet, so while I trawl for possible cases like this one, I thought I would ask. I apologise most profusely. Please don't feel any need to waste your time on here further.

Coupon-mad

It's not about a lack of ANPR signs, it's about a lack of extra warning signs that the enforcement of the site has changed, as required in the IPC CoP for any new restrictions.

Lack of clear signs is about the most common reason people win v PPCs; it is fundamental.

didgeridoooo

Thanks. What I was trying to find out is whether cases win on signage due to past cases/judgements, due to civil law, or due just to PPC codes of practice. In other words, is merely a breach of IPC/BPA CoP enough to win cases (more often than not), is it more down to whether the Judge 'deems' the signage not clear enough. If non-compliance with CoP on its own as the single and only defence point, wins cases at least reasonably often, I will decide to fight it. If not, my wife was in a hurry to find some way to pay this while it's 'only' at £60 and save the workload on me and possible risks of bigger losses.

She is obviously kicking herself to bits over it, in tears in fact (no sympathy from me, so I expect none from anyone else!) Sadly the pretty desperate state of affairs here means even saving a quid or two in parking is a must if it can be. She had already spent a fiver beforehand on parking, on that same day, and had !!!!!! all change left (again no excuse). The most annoying thing here is that there is a totally free car park just a few hundred yards from the one in question, but it puts her out of view of the children and so, combined with the friendly 'nod' she got from the council bloke who ruled the roost for past few years, she saw no risk whatsoever.

Regardless of her errors, if it had been clear that ownership had changed to private, and that ANPR was in use, she would obviously have not behaved this way. Which I think mitigates things and shows precisely why these companies are often so lax on signage, its just such a good earner while they catch out the regulars.

Interestingly she found a small website or maybe FB page last night for this car park and there were lots of comments about it being a nice park etc, but very recently a few comments saying beware, private companies operate it now but havent updated signage. Not sure if that's true, but its only a few weeks ago and both my wife and the kids are pretty good at spotting changes to signage (and they did look around while sat in car park in van for 2 hours). She will go back this week and have another look.

Will wait til I see photos/video of car park and decide then, and I won't be asking for advice on this case if I do decide to fight it, I know enough about the process now! Thanks again.

The_Deep

It is always worth fighting private PCNs as n[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ine times out of ten of these tickets are scams. Consider complaining to your MP, it can cause the scammer extra work.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.[/FONT]

didgeridoooo

On that note, I must look into this parking bill. Last time I looked I thought it was in force now. I thought it was shutting these swines down or at least doing something to actually curb their practices rather than just moaning about em!

Coupon-mad

In other words, is merely a breach of IPC/BPA CoP enough to win cases (more often than not), is it more down to whether the Judge 'deems' the signage not clear enough.

Second one.

didgeridoooo

My wife went back to this car park, and there are now plenty of signs which, whilst she is convinced she must be going mad not to have seen them (looked for them!), they may well have been there when she parked. She looked online and saw a post from someone about the same car park, dated prior to my wife's PCN data, and mentioning ANPR. She is therefore kicking herself and wants to pay it mainly out of feeling bad/stupid, and to prevent another case and the stress of it, travel to hearing etc. POFA could provide some defence points, but ultimately she was there, and even though she didn't leave the vehicle, we don't see this case being worth fighting. Thanks for replies as always.

Coupon-mad

Just because they have signs up and ANPR was operating doesn't mean there is no defence. No-one here pays PPS and they are routinely beaten at court.

didgeridoooo

Thanks. I think my wife is just quite down and sick of watching me spending hours writing documents, and the prospect of her having to go to court again with 5 kids to organise etc etc. I know how that sounds, lame, in a word. But life really isn't easy at the mo, especially for her, so I can see her motivation (or lack of).

Basically, she did drive in and stay for 2 hours. She did not pay, she was expecting the usual man to pop along and say hello while she bought a ticket. Her mistake. She thinks this stupid mistake means she should just pay it while it's 'only' £60, which whilst I can understand, it does annoy me as that's giving them exactly what they want, playing the perfect victim.

That said, I will scour for some PPS threads and see if that gives me stuff to persuade her with. At this point it will be POFA only, as we have no driver defences. So I think that means we have to hope they screw up the requirements of POFA at some point. Will give it some thought, she wants to pay it when she gets home this evening so I will dig today. Thanks again, I appreciate the support even if it sounds like I don't when I talk of paying. It makes my teeth hurt to even contemplate that, but as I have learned, preparing for court is incredibly costly too and i have no loss of earnings to prove so its unlikely to be a net win financially anyway, a spiritual one, OH YES! Thank you