Storage Heaters

Richie-from-the-Boro

Gerry1 wrote: »

So that's why Bulb's TOU tariff charges up to 41.94p/kWh between these times? :huh:

Bulb's surcharge of 25/kWh is a certainly a poor incentive ! Perhaps all the windfarms have been wired in reverse, and the generators are acting as motors driving huge fans? That would certainly explain the gales we're having !

Yes it stinks. It's been in industry, even SME's for years. Mind you domestic consumers have never demonstrated demand - hardly surprising when annual offerings were as tiny as 1-3%.

NSCH collectively must be a huge storage bank of surplus generation nationally IMO. Linked to a non-dynamic fixed rate TOU tariff arrangement throughout the whole of the EU must be a megga real life SELL to the 'climate' warriors' in the EU parliament.

The so sold idea of dynamic pricing is the usual get in first lobby industry con against consumers because they're actually agreeing to buying as unseen speculators because they never know the price before they contract. Ditto price descriptives, I'm old school stop .. .. the obscurity .. .. sell it as kWH pay known kW price.

It's already a given that.:

- SMETS3 installed NS users 1st [with a legislated opt-in only first]
- discounted @ a hell of a lot more than 1-3%pa
- that might provide the 'nudge' theory needed
- these islands could/should go it alone Brexit or not

It must be worth 'lakes' of energy storage, and security and the biggest blue peter badge in history. Best of luck Gerry1.

PMSG

Gerry1 wrote: »

No doubt Malc will be able to give full details next week, but I fear the choice is between Economy 7 and bankruptcy ! Once you've left E.On's E10 tariff there's no going back, and it's at best doubtful whether anyone else will offer it to a new customer. So right now she's paying a fortune (i) because it's a standard tariff rather than a deal, and (ii) because it's peak rate 24/7.
.

Hi Gerry1, it's gone a bit quiet on here, do you think the E.ON posters are on holiday?

Gerry1

Well, they've only had seven working hours so far, and perhaps other customers were already in the queue !

In the meantime, to make things easier have you prepared the groundwork as far as possible? Perhaps some or all of these apply:-

• Contacted the simpler metering team
• Applied for Warm Home Discount
• Registered for the Priority Services Register
• Applied to manage the account on behalf of your sister

PMSG

Gerry1 wrote: »

Well, they've only had seven working hours so far, and perhaps other customers were already in the queue !

In the meantime, to make things easier have you prepared the groundwork as far as possible? Perhaps some or all of these apply:-

• Contacted the simpler metering team
• Applied for Warm Home Discount
• Registered for the Priority Services Register
• Applied to manage the account on behalf of your sister

[*]Contacted the simpler metering team - Not yet still trying to decide between E10 and E7
[*] Applied for Warm Home Discount - Not eligible
[*] Registered for the Priority Services Register - Done in 2017
[*]Applied to manage the account on behalf of your sister - Done in 2019(September)

PMSG

Gerry1 wrote: »

Economy 10 is more bad news because it will probably be phased out quite soon, and there's little or no competition anyway, as you've discovered.

If not, you'll probably end up with E7 sooner or later depending on whether you jump or are pushed. Unfortunately, as they're on E10 it's likely that the heaters are old style boxes of bricks that aren't well insulated and are low capacity; on E7 they are likely to be too cool by late evening.

You could always try finding out the E7 times in your area (dial 105), waiting until the weather is really cold, turning the input control right up, the output control low (except late in the day), and manually switching the radiators off outside the E7 cheap rate times. If the results are acceptable then you could just switch to E7 (make sure the automatic switching hours are also changed). But be careful, once you've moved to E7 there's no going back !

If, as is probable, the old heaters are not happy with E7 hours then your best bet would be clever storage heaters such as Dimplex Quantum, provided that they are correctly dimensioned and programmed. They are more efficient because they waste less heat when it's not needed at night and have a fan to boost the output late in the afternoon and evening. If all else fails then you can top them up (sparingly !) with full price electricity.

Start giving meter readings straight away, otherwise the DD may rocket if she hasn't been paying her way. If she's also on a deemed tariff that will be mega-expensive, so act fast.

Lots of good points in this Gerry1.

If this was my flat, I would be persuaded by your arguments in favour of E7.

In the case of my sister it is less clear, because stability is more important to her. A move to E7 seems more complicated to manage than staying on E10 especially as my assistance is from 200 miles away which makes experimenting with the timers on the storage heaters not really practicable. Also the fact that the storage heaters may not cope well with the shorter E7 hours. means her warmth might be threatened in the coming winter. So for her, E10 might be the best option?

However, there is also the question of whether either E7 or E10 will be cheaper than a competitive one rate tariff. Her usage has been 8497 kwh per annum (made up of 4727 daytime and 3770 nighttime). (Obviously I don't know what the day usage and night usage would be on E7 hours).

The annual cost on her current tariff is £1586 which seems very high for a 2 bed room flat occupied by one person who has very few appliances - cooker(rarely used), microwave, TV, radio, refrigerator (no washing machine, drier or dishwasher) apart from the storage heaters and water heater.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Rented accommodation almost always means you would not be allowed to upgrade. The solution is to put an extra NSH of any size or upgrade from 1.7 to 2.4 for example.

The total of £1586 is high for the size, example I'm @ about sub £1k for a two bedroom open plan house with similar annual kW use on E7 with a 50/50%.split day/night. The 4727 core / 3770 night rate is clearly bordering the wrong way round [but pretty close] use - I suggest supplimentary fire is in use in daytime.

Supplementary heating is always needed with E7 but if it's used frequently with E10 it suggests a regular use of a daytime fire on or a very underspecified stored space heating installation. Most NSCH are and always were underspecified council / HA / SO lease builds.

Best of luck.

Gerry1

PMSG wrote: »

In the case of my sister it is less clear, because stability is more important to her. A move to E7 seems more complicated to manage than staying on E10 especially as my assistance is from 200 miles away which makes experimenting with the timers on the storage heaters not really practicable. Also the fact that the storage heaters may not cope well with the shorter E7 hours. means her warmth might be threatened in the coming winter. So for her, E10 might be the best option?

However, there is also the question of whether either E7 or E10 will be cheaper than a competitive one rate tariff.

I think you'll find that E10 is doomed, regardless of supplier. It's a relic from the 1970s when councils, colleges, landlords etc were attracted by pseudo central heating with low capital / maintenence / inspection costs and no problems with gas leaks, explosions, blocked flues, carbon monoxide poisoning etc. They didn't care that electricity was more expensive than gas because that was the tenants' problem, (and all energy was much cheaper then anyway). E10 was effectively a bodge with an afternoon boost to overcome the shortcomings of cheap storage heaters that were under-sized and poorly insulated.

Underfloor heating had even greater drawbacks because it had virtually no storage and needed even longer periods such as E18. But college landlords loved it because the capital costs were even lower, there was nothing to suffer from wear and tear, and with four students in a flat for limited hours in the day and limited weeks in the year the bills weren't catastrophic.

Now that many power stations are reaching the end of their lives, electricity shortfalls during the afternoon peak are looming and we're seeing the equivalent of Congestion Charging appearing; Bulb's Time of Use tariff already charges up to 41.94p/kWh between 4-7pm.

So expecting the E10 dinosaur to remain cheaper in the afternoon is like hoping that driving a diesel car in central London will be cheaper than hopping on a bus ! The E10 tariff will become prohibitively expensive, new meters won't be available and existing ones will no longer be supported... you won't be able to stop the tide coming in.

If you do try to stay with E10 (meters / and or tariff), make sure you get written confirmation before making any decisions: there are E.On horror stories such as five different agents giving five different answers !

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

PMSG wrote: »

My sister has moved onto an all electric retirement apartment with storage heaters. This is all new to me. I am finding it impossible to get help about choosing a tariff (or even a meter) to best control her electricity bills. The problem I have encountered is that many sources of help (eg. Uswitch) don't cover Economy 10 tariffs. Where can I go to get help about whether Economy 10, Economy 7 or flat rate metering will be best for my sister? How can I be sure that selecting a meter will not prevent her switching in future?

PMSG wrote: »

Thanks for helpful replies.

More background;

- it is a McCarthy and Stone retirement flat - gas is not an option.
- currently has a Economy 10 meter with three readings and two MPANs
- she is currently on standard variable tariff as her supplier E.ON withdrew its tariff and said she had to have a new meter - she did nothing about this not realising its significance
- whilst storage heaters are old I am not inclined to replace them
- seems like choice is between Economy 7 or Economy 10 - with all posters preferring 7
- however she will need a new meter. How can I be sure the Economy 7 meter she is given will be switchable between suppliers?
- if she switches to Economy 7, I assume her storage heaters and immersion heater will need their timers changing? Does this require professional help?

Thanks for your help - this feels like swimming in treacle.

PMSG wrote: »

Gerry1 you state

"Once you've left E.On's E10 tariff there's no going back, and it's at best doubtful whether anyone else will offer it to a new customer."

My sister was forced off the Economy 10 tariff by EON in July 2017 when they stated it was going to be withdrawn. Your reply seems to imply Economy 10 is still available to existing EON customers in which case shouldn't she be allowed to revert to that tariff as she was taken off it under false pretences?

Hello PMSG and welcome to the Forums. Already a lot of good advice on here - thanks all.

We're phasing out older three-rate Economy 10 meters similar to the one at your sister's home as we're no longer able to support them. This project is being looked after by our Simpler Metering team and these are the best advisors to talk to about this. They'll be happy to go through the options available.

These meters were designed mainly for all electric properties with storage heaters and electric water immersion heaters. They give 10 hours of cheaper off-peak electricity in each 24 hour period for heating and hot water purposes. This is split into 3 time slots during the afternoon, in the evening and at night.

To work, meters are wired directly into the heating/hot water circuits at individual properties. This lets them automatically switch the storage heaters/hot water on and off during the off-peak times. As well as cheaper off-peak rates for heating, there are 5 hours at night when all electricity is charged at the cheaper rates.

One of the options being offered by Simpler Metering is the newer two-rate Economy 10 and I suspect this is closest to the current set-up at your sister's home. With these meters, your sister will have 10 hours of off-peak electricity for all usage. This will still be in three periods as above.

Where suitable, our Simpler Metering team will also talk about other options like Economy 7 and single rate. Economy 7 meters also work with certain types of heating such as storage heaters and electric water immersion heaters. Situations vary widely and it's important they look at each case individually as changing the meter can have implications for the heating and hot water.

For instance, storage heaters are insulated boxes containing bricks with electric elements running through them. They charge up during the cheaper off-peak times. The bricks retain the heat which is then gradually released throughout the day. As Gerry1 says, a common complaint with storage heaters, particularly older ones, is a tendency to leak heat and to cool down too early. As a result, the industry came up with Economy 10. As well as an off-peak night period, Economy 10 meters charge up in the afternoon and evening. This 'tops-up' the stored heat to help properties stay warm throughout the day. With Economy 7 meters, all 7 off-peak hours are at night with no 'top-ups' as with Economy 10.

A benefit of Economy 7 and single rate meters is there's more choice of tariff. This is both with us and with the other suppliers. Changing tariff is relatively straightforward too.

Single rate meters tend to be offered to customers in properties where the heating arrangements have been significantly altered.

Our Simpler Metering advisors will talk through the above in much more detail so as to better understand how things like the loss of 'top-ups' and reduced off-peak hours will impact your sister.

Meter exchanges under the Simpler Metering project are done without charge.

Hope this helps point you in the right direction PMSG.

Malc

Kowman

PMSG wrote: »

My sister has moved onto an all electric retirement apartment with storage heaters. This is all new to me. I am finding it impossible to get help about choosing a tariff (or even a meter) to best control her electricity bills. The problem I have encountered is that many sources of help (eg. Uswitch) don't cover Economy 10 tariffs. Where can I go to get help about whether Economy 10, Economy 7 or flat rate metering will be best for my sister? How can I be sure that selecting a meter will not prevent her switching in future?

In every property that I have had with storage heaters the bills have been more than double and sometimes 4x as much as Gas.

My advice to you is to turn them off, honestly she is better off with a blanket, especially if she is in a retirement block where the heat from other properties makes hers warmer.

I only have my heating on if it snows or we have 10 days of temperatures below -5c

I suspect that she was put on that Tariff because the residential home provider is on a commission and suggest she gets away ASAP,

Use uSwitch and select the tick box that shows deals they can't switch online, that is where the best deals are.

Economy 7 may be cheaper in some circumstances but she will probably have a clause in her lease that says she can't put a wash on late at night.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Protect your health in the cold

If you're not very mobile, are 65 or over, or have a health condition, such as heart or lung disease, heat your home to at least 18C (65F), particularly if you have a long-term health condition, such as heart, lung or kidney disease keep your bedroom at 18C all night if you can and keep the bedroom window closed during the day you may prefer your living room to be slightly warmer than 18C.