BEVs deals and information

joefizz

1961Nick wrote: »

Some of the 2 year low contracted lease deals are ridiculously cheap. The depreciation can be double the amount you pay in rentals!

The reason it's done is to ensure a supply of low mileage, nearly new stock for the dealer network. The manufacturers are effectively making 2 year old vehicles & the leasee is part of the manufacturing process.

Thats if you believe the RRP though ;-)
Thats a good way of looking at it, i might steal that if you dont mind! Effectively making 2 year old cars which are then re-leased through manufacturer credit for the same monthly price with all the problems ironed out. Inflated 2 year old price to make it look like a bargain etc etc, roll up any outstanding debt/fees/initial rental fee into the next line of credit and...
The car isnt the product, the finance is. Been that way for a quite a while now.

Going back to the radio rentals business model!

almillar

Thanks, thats all the point I was making. Its sort of the forum title ;-)

Yes, but you missed out 'sometimes buying a new car is necessary' you can't economically run your current car for ever. I answered your question.

replacing perfectly good cars

Who's replacing perfectly good cars? Consumers, after their 2,3,4,5 year lease is up? Manufacturers? Who are you blaming? Cars get more expensive, people still want to buy them, can't afford them, they lease them. I'm not sure if these are the same people that claim to save the planet.

Yes, and in particular model 3s with the equivalent type of car. Look on any of the Tesla owners forums. Cheaper for me to insure an Alfa Guilia Quadrifoglio than a Tesla 3

.

Fair enough. But specific to the Model 3, it's brand new on the road, so insurance cos will be cautious about it. Model S is a fairer comparison right now.

Thats a fallacy and a vast generalisation. You can buy a used aston martin for less than a new suzuki jimny but it still costs the same to run an old aston (well more) than a new one.

No, THAT's a fallacy, as in a false comparison. The used Aston is cheaper to buy than a new Aston. That new Jimny will become used, and cheaper. Comparing a supercar to a tiny off roader is quite a stretch to prove your point.

Car manufacturers are making more money from the financing than the building of these cars. PCP for a couple of years then used PCP

No argument there. Nothing to do with EVs.

Was looking at a new suzuki jimny for a friend at the start of the year. 13k brand new. new model out now 23k. wow, but you can hire it for a number of years for 13k....

I think the new Jimny is much improved over the old Jimny, I assume that's what you're comparing, but again, you're not comparing like with like.

Should we do away with mortgages too and only live in houses we can buy with 'cash'?!

1961Nick

joefizz wrote: »

Thats if you believe the RRP though ;-)
Thats a good way of looking at it, i might steal that if you dont mind! Effectively making 2 year old cars which are then re-leased through manufacturer credit for the same monthly price with all the problems ironed out. Inflated 2 year old price to make it look like a bargain etc etc, roll up any outstanding debt/fees/initial rental fee into the next line of credit and...
The car isnt the product, the finance is. Been that way for a quite a while now.

Going back to the radio rentals business model!

Personal example:

List: £46,000
Typical discounted price: £36,000
Value at the end of the contract: £23,500
Contract 24 months but extended to 27 months - 10,000 miles pa

Rentals paid £8468 less £225 VED = £8243. That's £4257 less than owning it & the saving would be higher if you factored interest into the calculation.

Running costs during the 27 months amounted to an oil change.

joefizz

almillar wrote: »

Should we do away with mortgages too and only live in houses we can buy with 'cash'?!

No, you miss my point, this is a green ethical moneysaving forum and youve agreed all my points about that.
I wasnt saying that cars dont have an end to life, they do but successive governments from the scrappage scheme have been propping up the car industry with an environmental impact.

Nobody has given me a good answer yet about the discrepancy in the figures in what used to be a progression you too have documented. Cars bought new, including fleet sold on etc etc The size and desirability had an impact on price, now the eco measures can have an impact on price.
Old high CO2 cars can be bought for a song because they cost a fortune to tax (look at ROI over 2 grand a year to tax a 2 grand old sports car - again I'll use alfa gtvs). Lots of cars forced off the road and not properly recycled under the guise of green and eco when its far from it.
Cant afford a new car, well we will rent you one, and after a couple of years of this design cars which arent a patch on what they used to be (still better than early 80s but thats not my point), but who cares, they only have to live for 5 or 6 years now, 2x3 years pcp and then scrapped/left in a field/exported to africa or whatever they do with them.



Glad you mentioned the houses bit because its exactly the same sort of cheap credit that has inflated house prices, making them unaffordable.
It used to be people could afford cars and if they couldnt they could find something they could afford and keep it on the road.


As I keep mentioning its a green, ethical, moneysaving forum and as has been mentioned by multiple posters these pcp and new car deals dont match any of them. Thats my point.
What people do with their dosh is no concern of mine but its not ethical on many many levels from what happens to the cars after the cycle to the getting people in debt.
More people are buying more new cars than ever before. The people who couldnt afford to buy the new cars in the past used to buy older cars, now they are leasing newer ones, so more newer cars on the road. So instead of a longer tail of age of cars, and its generally accepted that after about 70k miles they go into carbon balance but the age distribution is a lot less now so where are all the older ones going?


On nicks point about cost of his ownership, thats whats being sold, have a look at the penalties for paint scratches and excess mileage. I know people who went in and these werent even looked at 3 years ago as long as they took another pcp deal out, if they didnt they were penalised heavily, at last renewal its a smaller car as the penalties were added to the debt and rolled over for miraculously the same price per month.


OK, heres some info Id like to get if anyone cares to contribute, it will be anecdotal I know but Id be genuinely interested if what I see/hear here in NI is reflected in the rest of the UK.
If anyone has had a PCP car in the last say 6-7 years can they look up on the dvla search to see if its taxed/mot'd now. Theres a big gap in some of the stuff over here so would be interesting to see other peoples real world data.

mmmmikey

I have to say I'm with joefizz on a lot of what he says about green and ethical moneysaving.

Having said that BEVs will never become the way of the future unless some of us start buying them new so they can be sold on as secondhand in years to come.

An observation on the PCP front which I think is relevant here....

I've always steered clear of this in the past as when I've done the sums it's always looked better to buy from savings. But, even though I have the savings, I'm seriously considering PCP for my next car for a couple of reasons:

1. With PCP the residual value is effectively underwritten by the finance provider. This has never been a big deal for me in the past since residuals have been fairly easy to predict, so why pay a premium for the benefit of someone else taking the risk of an unlikely shift in the market? But the car sales market is changing at the moment with a slowdown in new sales generally and the likely big increase in BEV sales. What impact is this going to have on the secondhand value of an ICE car in the next few years - who knows? For the risk averse (like me now I'm retired) there is an attraction to letting the finance company take the risk.

2. Many of the manufacturers offer promotional pricing on PCP deals that significantly offset (or sometimes even beat) the cost of financing the purchase yourself at the cost of a loff of interest on savings.

Fully accept joefizz's point that buying new cars isn't moneysaving when compared to buying and keeping older cars, but some ways of buying new cars are better than others and moneysaving in that sense.

1961Nick

One important point we're overlooking is the cost of capital. For someone that has a poor credit rating, the cost of finance can be 15x higher than someone with a perfect credit score.

Finance is very cheap at the moment, but only for those that don't really need it.

The economics of a PCP really depend on your credit rating.

joefizz

mmmmikey wrote: »

But the car sales market is changing at the moment with a slowdown in new sales generally and the likely big increase in BEV sales. What impact is this going to have on the secondhand value of an ICE car in the next few years - who knows?

Anecdotal I know but the people Ive spoken to who have bought EVs recently (and in particular teslas) have mentioned in passing that they are thinking of keeping the car for 6 years or more.
I didnt really push this but thought it was interesting because most have been the 3/4 year and get rid before MOT stage people. Definitely get rid before timing belts etc become an issue people.
Every single person has mentioned the warranty on the batteries and other than tyres, windscreen wiper blades, 12v batteries they cant see much needing replaced in 4 years before MOT. One or two mentioned that with regenerative braking they may not need to do anything to the brakes in that time or not.
The charging points may also be more of a fixed costs to keep people to cars/marques longer, its all to play out.


EVs might make people think differently about how/when they purchase cars purely from a reliability standpoint but that remains to be seen.

1961Nick

joefizz wrote: »

Anecdotal I know but the people Ive spoken to who have bought EVs recently (and in particular teslas) have mentioned in passing that they are thinking of keeping the car for 6 years or more.
I didnt really push this but thought it was interesting because most have been the 3/4 year and get rid before MOT stage people. Definitely get rid before timing belts etc become an issue people.
Every single person has mentioned the warranty on the batteries and other than tyres, windscreen wiper blades, 12v batteries they cant see much needing replaced in 4 years before MOT. One or two mentioned that with regenerative braking they may not need to do anything to the brakes in that time or not.
The charging points may also be more of a fixed costs to keep people to cars/marques longer, its all to play out.


EVs might make people think differently about how/when they purchase cars purely from a reliability standpoint but that remains to be seen.

I generally change my car between years 3 & 4 because this is the point were non-routine maintenance starts to become an issue.

I'll treat replacing an EV the same way. If that happens to be 5, 6 or more years, that's how long I'll keep it.

almillar

Old high CO2 cars can be bought for a song because they cost a fortune to tax (look at ROI over 2 grand a year to tax a 2 grand old sports car - again I'll use alfa gtvs). Lots of cars forced off the road and not properly recycled under the guise of green and eco when its far from it.

I agree. There are cars worth £1,000 that cost £500 to tax. Mazda RX8 for example. Lots of other nice cars, from around 2007 that are still paying a premium, and being forced off the road.

Cant afford a new car, well we will rent you one, and after a couple of years of this design cars which arent a patch on what they used to be (still better than early 80s but thats not my point), but who cares, they only have to live for 5 or 6 years now, 2x3 years pcp and then scrapped/left in a field/exported to africa or whatever they do with them.

'Aren't a patch on what they used to be' is your opinion. And I think that cars last longer than 5 or 6 years. Also, if they get exported to Africa, they're still in use.

As I keep mentioning its a green, ethical, moneysaving forum and as has been mentioned by multiple posters these pcp and new car deals dont match any of them. Thats my point.

But, what do you want this forum to do about it? Do you want cars to cost less? Me too. Do you want to sacrifice safety or creature comforts? If you don't want a new car, buy a used car, but don't criticise people buying new as 'not green' or 'not ethical' - as I've said, they're supplying the market with that nice cheap used car you're driving. These (green/PCP/new) are three separate arguments that you're lumping together.

More people are buying more new cars than ever before.

Did I not just hear that new car sales in the UK are down?!

The people who couldnt afford to buy the new cars in the past used to buy older cars, now they are leasing newer ones, so more newer cars on the road. So instead of a longer tail of age of cars, and its generally accepted that after about 70k miles they go into carbon balance but the age distribution is a lot less now so where are all the older ones going?

Might I suggest you compare the UK to the rest of Europe? We have very high labour charges for servicing and repairing cars and that (in my opinion) contributes a lot to cars ending their lives faster - not economical to repair. Cars have become more complicated, and plenty are 'written off' (by insurance or individual) with very little wrong with them. Look at bangernomics. Buy cheap, run it, break it, buy another. This is only possible because cars become so cheap, still in usable condition, but are so expensive to repair. There's an argument that you shouldn't be able to drive a car into a scrapyard - if it can drive it, it should be driven back out again! You're blaming the 'top' of the market, and loans, saying it's not green to keep buying, but I'll shine a light at the 'bottom' of the market, where plenty of good cars die prematurely.

On nicks point about cost of his ownership, thats whats being sold, have a look at the penalties for paint scratches and excess mileage. I know people who went in and these werent even looked at 3 years ago as long as they took another pcp deal out, if they didnt they were penalised heavily, at last renewal its a smaller car as the penalties were added to the debt and rolled over for miraculously the same price per month.

There are established industry rules about how you are expected to look after someone else's car whilst you have it, and some wear and tear is acceptable. Again, another separate issue, and if you don't like it, don't borrow (PCP) a car! I ran a Renault Zoe for 2 years for £4,000, including everything except insurance, on PCP. List price was £18,000 odd. But I didn't pay that. That's an extreme example, but I certainly don't feel shafted by PCP.

I'm in NI too BTW. I don't think we can access MOT data here, just tax.

2. Many of the manufacturers offer promotional pricing on PCP deals that significantly offset (or sometimes even beat) the cost of financing the purchase yourself at the cost of a loff of interest on savings.

This is on the motoring board all the time. Simply take the deal, drive the car away, then call the finance company and settle the 'loan'. You've got the deal, and payed a few days' interest, max.

joefizz

almillar wrote: »

I agree. There are cars worth £1,000 that cost £500 to tax. Mazda RX8 for example. Lots of other nice cars, from around 2007 that are still paying a premium, and being forced off the road.

'Aren't a patch on what they used to be' is your opinion. And I think that cars last longer than 5 or 6 years. Also, if they get exported to Africa, they're still in use.

My point about Africa was, yes I agree if thats the case and its one of the things mentioned but theres no figures ever given to what happens to excess cars of that age. Isnt there a problem with some of the leafs with rented batteries at this age?

almillar wrote: »

But, what do you want this forum to do about it? Do you want cars to cost less? Me too. Do you want to sacrifice safety or creature comforts? If you don't want a new car, buy a used car, but don't criticise people buying new as 'not green' or 'not ethical' - as I've said, they're supplying the market with that nice cheap used car you're driving. These (green/PCP/new) are three separate arguments that you're lumping together.

Ok, I'll say it again, Im not the one lumping it together, it was posted on this forum. If it was posted in the motoring forum I wouldnt say a word, each to their own.
My objection is PCP isnt green or ethical (neither is scrappage of perfectly good cars). We've probably exhausted that, I thought it was a simple concept. My points below and in the thread about car manufacture being tailored to PCP highlight the green/ethical aspect.

I agree cars _should_ last longer than 5 or 6 years (I drive a 12, 19 and 22 year old vehicles) but my entire point is that are they being allowed to?
Buying a new car that will run to the end of its natural serviceable life of 10-15 years through various ownership is green and ethical(of sorts). Its when the market is manipulated so that this never happens is the bit I have problems with.

almillar wrote: »

Did I not just hear that new car sales in the UK are down?!

Yes, they are, after years of expansion, hence my posts about pcp affecting it with the credit withdrawal. This will probably continue.

almillar wrote: »

Might I suggest you compare the UK to the rest of Europe? We have very high labour charges for servicing and repairing cars and that (in my opinion) contributes a lot to cars ending their lives faster - not economical to repair. Cars have become more complicated, and plenty are 'written off' (by insurance or individual) with very little wrong with them. Look at bangernomics. Buy cheap, run it, break it, buy another. This is only possible because cars become so cheap, still in usable condition, but are so expensive to repair. There's an argument that you shouldn't be able to drive a car into a scrapyard - if it can drive it, it should be driven back out again! You're blaming the 'top' of the market, and loans, saying it's not green to keep buying, but I'll shine a light at the 'bottom' of the market, where plenty of good cars die prematurely.

I agree with you on all of the above and Ive mentioned it in conjunction with the PCP argument, you are sort of making my point for me, good reasonable cars which used to be purchased and kept running by the people who now take new PCP for cars which, for the want of a better phrase, have inbuilt obsolescence by design just to keep the motor manufacturers running and feeding credit to stock gdp etc... I take your point that if the motor manufacturers keeping the plates spinning may feed down into 2nd hand stock but again Im asking for help in actually sourcing info on if this is the case or if like dieselgate its manipulation of the market?



Totally agree on the pricing, particularly dealers. I sat in a dealers once and they charged me for a 4 hour job even though Id just been sitting for 2 hours. Well the book says its a 4 hour job so thats what we charge. They didnt even have the wit to say we had 2 mechanics working on it because you were sitting waiting.

On another service I was told my front tires were about the legal limit and needed changed. I asked the supervisor to go back and check and he did. He came back to say they were borderline and he would give me a good price. I showed him that mornings receipt from kwik fit for 2 new front tires. 'Oh they might have fitted non standard tires with lower tread' was the reposte. Seriously.
I had work done by a dealer over in GB I was that peed off with them and they showed me a list of work done to my car, about 1/3 I hadnt known about done under warranty.... hmm... needless to say they arent main dealers any more.
Other main dealers Ive not had a problem with and would buy from again.



Too many sealed parts that get written off as unrepairable but thats been encouraged either tacitly or explicitly whereas a good auto electrician would probably repair. Then again for the cost of a repair you can hire a brand new car on a monthly lower fee etc etc.
I only started fixing my cars myself when they were out of warranty and anything I cant/dont have time to do gets done at good independents which I have used for years and are reasonable. Most are ex dealer and specialists in the marques.


Ive made the point in another thread about speaking to people who have bought EVs recently and they may consider not selling on at 3-4 years and maybe waiting to 6 due to less fear about unreliability etc etc. Of course thats to be seen and the knock on effect it would have on leasing deals/credit etc if cars are seen to last longer with minimal intervention. Maybe thats why so many are slower on the uptake, turkeys voting for Christmas?

almillar wrote: »

There are established industry rules about how you are expected to look after someone else's car whilst you have it, and some wear and tear is acceptable. Again, another separate issue, and if you don't like it, don't borrow (PCP) a car! I ran a Renault Zoe for 2 years for £4,000, including everything except insurance, on PCP. List price was £18,000 odd. But I didn't pay that. That's an extreme example, but I certainly don't feel shafted by PCP.

PCP has its place, everything you mention is perfect for business/fleet which then would feed the 2nd hand market. My point is that PCP has distorted the market and in a lot of places (audi for instance) has become the market and the cars are then built to suit this market.... which is my point. The car manufacturers dont sell cars any more, they sell finance. So what happens when the finance runs out or you have a car which gets to the stage it cant be financed except by the old way of bank loans and well... we know how that goes.

almillar wrote: »

I'm in NI too BTW.

I know ;-) Ive a funny feeling we actually know each other!

almillar wrote: »

I don't think we can access MOT data here, just tax.

yes, we have been able to for the last few years.

almillar wrote: »

This is on the motoring board all the time. Simply take the deal, drive the car away, then call the finance company and settle the 'loan'. You've got the deal, and payed a few days' interest, max.

As mentioned above, dont have a problem with it on the motoring board but pick more up from pistonheads and dedicated marque forums. As mentioned this is green and ethical and in the above the dealer gets their cut/arrangement fees etc which really should come off the cash price. We end up paying regardless and have to go through hoops.
A friend last week went to get a car and was put off paying cash in a number of dealers and told to do exactly what you described. Did end up finding somewhere that would do a straight deal. When you look behind the scenes you understand why and its all to do with credit, not just the pcp but also loans from stock etc. I was involved in P2P and wouldnt touch with a bargepole the loans applied for by car dealers based on the rotating value of their stock as there was no way to audit this. That sort of explains why theres no cash discount any more, theyd rather refinance the loan on the stock than lose out on a future pcp finance commission/deal.


Ive probably strayed more now into the finance aspect than I wanted to ;-) but my point was to discuss the pcp and how its changed the car industry from a green and ethical perspective.