BEVs deals and information

joefizz

1961Nick wrote: »

If the Ape doesn't but a new car & then sell it after 2 years, where do you get your 2 year old car from?

The figures from the last couple of years have been startling. Where indeed do all the 2-3 year old ex-rental (pcp etc) cars go? Certainly not all onto the 2nd hand market as that would depress the prices.....
Most replace a shiny new rental car with another new slightly worse quality new rental car. Not many people buying 2-3 year old cars in comparison... Why would you when you can get a white poverty spec audi or merc for less money and show off to all your mates.


The previous scrappage schemes had a lot to answer for from an environmental, green and ethical point of view. Still anything to keep the debt ponzi economy going....

1961Nick

joefizz wrote: »

The figures from the last couple of years have been startling. Where indeed do all the 2-3 year old ex-rental (pcp etc) cars go? Certainly not all onto the 2nd hand market as that would depress the prices.....
Most replace a shiny new rental car with another new slightly worse quality new rental car. Not many people buying 2-3 year old cars in comparison... Why would you when you can get a white poverty spec audi or merc for less money and show off to all your mates.


The previous scrappage schemes had a lot to answer for from an environmental, green and ethical point of view. Still anything to keep the debt ponzi economy going....

Ex daily rental cars go to auction - the condition is usually too poor for the main dealer network.

The low mileage 2 & 3 year old PCP/contract hire cars provide the main dealer network with high quality used stock. Usually sold at closed auctions.

GreatApe

joefizz wrote: »

So all the stuff thats dug out of the ground with fossil fuels, made into raw materials with fossil fuels, shipped around the world with fossil fuels, assembled with fossil fuels, transported with fossil fuels and stored/prepped with fossil fuels.
Thats one hell of a price to pay for nice things for just 2 years use. So not green or ethical.

;-) Yeah...

Plus the 3 grand above... and anyone considering a Tesla has to look at the insurance quotes... so not really moneysaving either.

Agreed but for 6k I can get a couple of year old Alfa Brera, do it up and go around in real style...

Nobody needs a new car and your figures depend on you using the full mileage which most people wont. Makes much more green, ethical and economic sense to get a couple of year old car and run that... of course your mates may not think you are cool.

Of course when the credit drying up accelerates we will all be mostly driving old cars or not driving at all.

disclaimer, Ive bought 2 new cars in my life and still have them. One is utilitarian, the other is nice... Ive also a campervan. I probably run all three for less than 3k over 2 years including tax insurance, depreciation and everything else.

I would generally agree with you

However as I keep saying about 20% (perhaps more) of the population have more money than they need so they buy nice stuff. Not everything is a calculation on returns or money saving exercise.

There is a market for lower end, middle, and upper end for everything. Cars cloths food phones everything

Your finances or moral view point may be that buying a 2 year old car is better than a new car and that's fair enough. But you can also buy used furniture or cloths and again it would be much cheaper or even close to free vs buying new but you probably don't buy those things used because you can comfortably afford the new ones


I'm 100% in agreement that those who can't afford expensive cars shouldn't be buying them and people with limited funds should be looking to be MSE with most things

joefizz

1961Nick wrote: »

Ex daily rental cars go to auction - the condition is usually too poor for the main dealer network.

The low mileage 2 & 3 year old PCP/contract hire cars provide the main dealer network with high quality used stock. Usually sold at closed auctions.

Im not disagreeing with any of that. My question still stands, where do they then go?
Look at the figures for new car registrations (not sales)
Look at the figures for 2nd hand car sales (which includes auctions from the manufacturers to the dealer networks).
A few dealers near me have extended their forecourts recently to store more stock...
They can borrow money against their stock holding....

joefizz

GreatApe wrote: »

I would generally agree with you

However as I keep saying about 20% (perhaps more) of the population have more money than they need so they buy nice stuff. Not everything is a calculation on returns or money saving exercise.


<bit snipped out>


I'm 100% in agreement that those who can't afford expensive cars shouldn't be buying them and people with limited funds should be looking to be MSE with most things

As with some of your previous posts that pluck numbers out of thin air Im going to say thats not quite the reality of the situation. I dont know the numbers of people who earn more than they need, 20% may be a good guess, it wouldnt surprise me, nor would 10% nor would 5%.
However in the majority of cases its not the people who can afford it who are going for these lease deals. Thats where the danger lies, and whilst not as big a crisis as the sub prime housing, sub prime cars/auto is a candidate for going bang.
I would also disagree slightly on the saying that the people with excess money buy "nice" stuff, certainly in my experience they are the ones putting solar in, batteries, running 2nd hand ev cars, buying land, etc etc, all of which isnt on credit. What you term 'nice' stuff is generally stuff that lasts a lot longer, costs usually a bit more and over the lifetime is more environmentally friendly (of course not buying at all is the most eco friendly, but we cant all be saints).


I know a lot of rich people and I dont know a single one of them that would touch a pcp deal unless its a business lease. Probably thats why they are rich....

almillar

Can someone please explain to me in simple terms how renting a brand new car for 2 years is a) green b) ethical c) moneysaving.

Compared to what? Keeping your own car? It's not. Compared to buying a brand new diesel or petrol (all cars were bought brand new by someone, sometime), it might be. Some people buy new cars, keep them for a couple of years, then buy another. That certainly isn't green, whether ICE or electric, but people are still buying brand new cars. I've leased 2 (brand new) EVs in the last 5 years, but that's not something I plan to sustain, I just happened to get good deals on them. And if I want to make myself feel better about it, every new car theoretically forces an old car off the road, due to economics, and those old cars will be of the polluting type...

So all the stuff thats dug out of the ground with fossil fuels, made into raw materials with fossil fuels, shipped around the world with fossil fuels, assembled with fossil fuels, transported with fossil fuels and stored/prepped with fossil fuels.

If you do care about that feel free to research how a BMW i3 is built, and pay for one! (It's a carbon neutral factory, or something like that).

and anyone considering a Tesla has to look at the insurance quotes... so not really moneysaving either.

What car do you know of that doesn't require insurance? Do you have evidence that a Model S is more expensive to insure than a BMW 5 series, or are you comparing it to a Fiesta?!

Agreed but for 6k I can get a couple of year old Alfa Brera, do it up and go around in real style..

Show me your 2 year old £6,000 Alfa Brera. Show the cost of 'doing it up'.

Nobody needs a new car

Anybody that wants to drive nice cheap used cars is dependent upon those that buy new ones, to drive down prices.

GreatApe

joefizz wrote: »

As with some of your previous posts that pluck numbers out of thin air Im going to say thats not quite the reality of the situation. I dont know the numbers of people who earn more than they need, 20% may be a good guess, it wouldnt surprise me, nor would 10% nor would 5%.
However in the majority of cases its not the people who can afford it who are going for these lease deals. Thats where the danger lies, and whilst not as big a crisis as the sub prime housing, sub prime cars/auto is a candidate for going bang.
I would also disagree slightly on the saying that the people with excess money buy "nice" stuff, certainly in my experience they are the ones putting solar in, batteries, running 2nd hand ev cars, buying land, etc etc, all of which isnt on credit. What you term 'nice' stuff is generally stuff that lasts a lot longer, costs usually a bit more and over the lifetime is more environmentally friendly (of course not buying at all is the most eco friendly, but we cant all be saints).


I know a lot of rich people and I dont know a single one of them that would touch a pcp deal unless its a business lease. Probably thats why they are rich....

Why are you so anti leasing?

This car for sub £6k for two years seems a good deal
Purchasing the same car for £30k and reselling it in two years time will likely have a bigger loss in capital value

Also like most people I wouldn't want to sell a 2 year car privately seems a big risk to sell a £20k item to some Tom !!!! or Harry that rolls up to your house and if sold to a dealer surely you will have to bend over and grab your ankles at the prices they are likely to offer

Somebody has to buy new for there to be a second hand market
But I would agree that without lease deals likely the mix of new cars will change and the more value end £10-20k car sales would go up and the more expensive £30-60k car sales would fall

Also some people like me are not car people
I don't want to go view half a dozen used cars do test drives and kick some tires and haggle

joefizz

almillar wrote: »

Compared to what? Keeping your own car? It's not.

Thanks, thats all the point I was making. Its sort of the forum title ;-)

almillar wrote: »

If you do care about that feel free to research how a BMW i3 is built, and pay for one! (It's a carbon neutral factory, or something like that).

The factory may be carbon neutral but the lithium, steel, plastics, tyres arent.... ..which is sort of my point about these car rental schemes, replacing perfectly good cars (well there is an argument that the prevalence of these schemes has made manufacturers make in built obsolescence etc - great if they were able to reuse the panels etc in future cars - VW looking at this?)

almillar wrote: »

What car do you know of that doesn't require insurance? Do you have evidence that a Model S is more expensive to insure than a BMW 5 series, or are you comparing it to a Fiesta?!

Yes, and in particular model 3s with the equivalent type of car. Look on any of the Tesla owners forums. Cheaper for me to insure an Alfa Guilia Quadrifoglio than a Tesla 3.

almillar wrote: »

Show me your 2 year old £6,000 Alfa Brera. Show the cost of 'doing it up'.

Impossible, they stopped making them in 2010 ;-) Couple of years I admit was pushing it but was looking at one 2 months ago which would have cost about 6k to buy and bring back to almost showroom. 65k miles and me doing all the work. It wasnt red though so I didnt bother.

almillar wrote: »

Anybody that wants to drive nice cheap used cars is dependent upon those that buy new ones, to drive down prices.

Thats a fallacy and a vast generalisation. You can buy a used aston martin for less than a new suzuki jimny but it still costs the same to run an old aston (well more) than a new one.
Mate has a nice cheap used maserati quattroporte... yes... you can probably imagine...
Car manufacturers are making more money from the financing than the building of these cars. PCP for a couple of years then used PCP and quite happy to let a lot of them sit or just rent cars to people until the credit dries up.
What happens when the credit dries up... lets hope the public transport qe investment makes up the shortfall.
Its the availability of credit that regulates prices. Was looking at a new suzuki jimny for a friend at the start of the year. 13k brand new. new model out now 23k. wow, but you can hire it for a number of years for 13k....



I do agree with GAs earlier postings about whatever the number of EV cars replacing a grearter number of ICE cars but not for the reasons they posted.

joefizz

GreatApe wrote: »

Why are you so anti leasing?

This car for sub £6k for two years seems a good deal
Purchasing the same car for £30k and reselling it in two years time will likely have a bigger loss in capital value

Cant you tell ;-) Yes, very anti leasing. The leasing has become all encompassing and you used to be able to get a considerable cash discount which would have negated the equivalent loss in capital value. Id go further to say the prices have been inflated to match the availability of credit so effectively the sticker prices are worthless as the 'price' of the car is tailored by monthly payments not overall and the two arent related in the slightest.


The leasing aspect keeps the car within the dealer networks and has done damage to independent small local garages. Although have seen independents migrate to working for dealerships but also have seen some movement away locally as well recently.
Some of the smarter car people I know are seeing the return to keeping cars on the road longer and the inevitable increase in prices that brings with cars of a certain age.

There has been noticeable shifts in prices of 2nd hand cars according to credit availability guidelines. So say credit was available above a certain threshold then all cars slightly below that threshold were made more expensive and cars a bit further down dropped significantly with a lot of bargains to be had.
Some dealers wont touch a cash deal around 10k.

GreatApe wrote: »

Also like most people I wouldn't want to sell a 2 year car privately seems a big risk to sell a £20k item to some Tom !!!! or Harry that rolls up to your house and if sold to a dealer surely you will have to bend over and grab your ankles at the prices they are likely to offer

And yet that used to be normal! One lady owner, get your dear old ma out to sell the car that you have thrashed within an inch of its life....

GreatApe wrote: »

Somebody has to buy new for there to be a second hand market
But I would agree that without lease deals likely the mix of new cars will change and the more value end £10-20k car sales would go up and the more expensive £30-60k car sales would fall

Thats pretty much it a lot of cars are 'overvalued' to meet credit needs and it would restore a more normal buying situation. The mix would change but also the business would change, more small sellers, more small garages etc but most of all people wouldnt be getting into the bucketloads of debt they are currently in.

GreatApe wrote: »

Also some people like me are not car people
I don't want to go view half a dozen used cars do test drives and kick some tires and haggle

Seriously missing out on one of lifes experiences! Also remember that there were lots of used car dealers as well, just not interested in making their money from flogging you credit, they made their money from flogging cars.

1961Nick

Some of the 2 year low contracted lease deals are ridiculously cheap. The depreciation can be double the amount you pay in rentals!

The reason it's done is to ensure a supply of low mileage, nearly new stock for the dealer network. The manufacturers are effectively making 2 year old vehicles & the leasee is part of the manufacturing process.