A Question for Tory Supporters

lisyloo

phillw wrote: »

You're assuming the people you divert your anger at aren't making the best that they can of it with the life experience they had.

I'll post this article again, it's very enlightening.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/27/victim-blaming-science-behind-psychology-research

So back in the pre-welfare state days when it was work or die, most people did their utmost to find work.

Now that we have a benefits system that’s sympathetic to mental illness, minor pains that people used to put up it, it’s ok not to work.

I don’t think everyone is doing the best they can because there is no doubt that without the welfare state the vast majority would be working.
My husbands grandfather lost a leg and an arm from the first zeppelin in London. He used to deliver coal carrying heavy sacks (after his life changing injuries).
My MIL worked for 32 years with arthritis.
I think a lot of people wouldn’t do that these days.

I don’t think individuals should be blamed completely. It’s cultural.
For example a man who’s ex-army or ex-miner at 55 wont be invested in and will be written off by our system.

I would not tar everyone with the same brush but there is no doubt that Some people take advantage of the system.

SpiderLegs

lisyloo wrote: »

I would not tar everyone with the same brush but there is no doubt that Some people take advantage of the system.

Careful there. Using language like that will have you marked as a far-right racist !!!!!! homophobic brexit voting climate change denying baby booming tax evading misogynistic trump loving extremist.

Fortunately not anti-Semitic though as that is all just made up by the far-right extremist media that you no doubt read every day.

Green_Bear

lisyloo wrote: »

So back in the pre-welfare state days when it was work or die, most people did their utmost to find work.

Now that we have a benefits system that’s sympathetic to mental illness, minor pains that people used to put up it, it’s ok not to work.

I don’t think everyone is doing the best they can because there is no doubt that without the welfare state the vast majority would be working.
My husbands grandfather lost a leg and an arm from the first zeppelin in London. He used to deliver coal carrying heavy sacks (after his life changing injuries).
My MIL worked for 32 years with arthritis.
I think a lot of people wouldn’t do that these days.

I don’t think individuals should be blamed completely. It’s cultural.
For example a man who’s ex-army or ex-miner at 55 wont be invested in and will be written off by our system.

I would not tar everyone with the same brush but there is no doubt that Some people take advantage of the system.

Pre-welfare state family ties and the church etc were stronger.

lisyloo

SpiderLegs wrote: »

Careful there. Using language like that will have you marked as a far-right racist !!!!!! homophobic brexit voting climate change denying baby booming tax evading misogynistic trump loving extremist.

Fortunately not anti-Semitic though as that is all just made up by the far-right extremist media that you no doubt read every day.

Well if any stalkers wanted to read my posts they could see the truth.

But I know for a fact that family members have taken advantage of the system even to the point of having black and white evidence (just in case) so it’s a truth.

I am not tarring everyone with the same brush, there are plenty of good examples of war veterans who’ve overcome serious adversity, but to claim every single person is doing their best and laziness doesn’t exist or even taking the route of least resistance (prescription pain killers, benefits etc.) when it’s on offer is just a lie.

phillw

lisyloo wrote: »

I am not tarring everyone with the same brush,

Well that is the problem, a lot of the posts here are doing exactly that.

lisyloo wrote: »

So back in the pre-welfare state days when it was work or die, most people did their utmost to find work.

Most people do their utmost to find work now.

Cakeguts

Near where I live there have been complaints by people about a group of feral children. They roam around the streets all day the "parents" don't care whether they go to school or not. These children just spend all their time making life worse for everyone else in the area. The parents don't care where they are or what they are doing. What chance have they got of a) staying out of prison or b) getting a decent job?



Feral children are not due to shortage of money they are due to having parents who really don't want them. They don't want to put in the effort of giving the children a good start in life.



Before anyone gets onto people not working because they have had a bad childhood you can forget that in terms of bone idle parents. It doesn't work like that. People who have had bad childhoods get ill. They often are not well enough to have children themselves. There is no reason why someone who had an abusive childhood doesn't care for their own children except bone idleness.



Someone mentioned mining as an industry. A family member worked as a teacher in a big mining area where the pits were still the biggest employers. The local supermarket sold luxury food that none of the supermarkets in no mining towns sold and the teachers had to take round a box of school ties for the children to wear if they did a concert or any sort of performance because even though the parents could afford expensive food they didn't want to afford a school tie. So I can guarantee that in mining areas all that has changed now is the food bill.

phillw

Cakeguts wrote: »

People who have had bad childhoods get ill. They often are not well enough to have children themselves. There is no reason why someone who had an abusive childhood doesn't care for their own children except bone idleness.

I am glad you feel empowered to reveal your prejudice, it saves me a lot of time.
Is it the fact they managed to survive to childbearing age that angers you?

Green_Bear

Cakeguts wrote: »

Near where I live there have been complaints by people about a group of feral children. They roam around the streets all day the "parents" don't care whether they go to school or not.

Someone mentioned mining as an industry. A family member worked as a teacher in a big mining area where the pits were still the biggest employers. The local supermarket sold luxury food that none of the supermarkets in no mining towns sold and the teachers had to take round a box of school ties for the children to wear if they did a concert or any sort of performance because even though the parents could afford expensive food they didn't want to afford a school tie. So I can guarantee that in mining areas all that has changed now is the food bill.

There are few items more useless, pointless and artificially overpriced than school ties.

If what you say is actually true - then good on those parents. They were visionaries standing up to a corrupt system ahead of their time.

However, I suspect more likely the kids just lost or threw away their ties to be rebellious / cool etc.

Herzlos

Green_Bear wrote: »

However, I suspect more likely the kids just lost or threw away their ties to be rebellious / cool etc.

More likely still is that the parents who couldn't afford school ties couldn't afford the luxury food either.

Herzlos

babyblade41 wrote: »

I feel I'm a decent human being

We all do.

Any others I don't really care too much about... I'm happy , retired , not old as some may think but hate those who think they are entitled

But it turns out that you're not. You just want to justify not having to care about those that are less well off because it's their fault for being poor. It's a pretty common phenomenon like victim blaming - "the bad thing happened to them because they did something bad", rather than "the bad thing happened to them because life isn't fair" and that we all need help some time.
You almost certainly got plenty of breaks that those gormless workshy poor didn't, but you don't realise because it's not always that obvious. You've presumably been fairly close to having life go horribly wrong but didn't for some reasons that may be outside of your control.


Don't get me wrong; there are definitely some workshy unemployed (I've known some) who are either happy on benefits (I wouldn't be, it's almost nothing) or doing some side-jobs under the table, but the vast majority would rather not be drains on society given the appropriate help.

I certainly think tax evasion (both with millionairres and off-shore accounts, and the cash-in-hand industry) are a far bigger problem than paying a few people to stay at home.
Even thinking about it selfishly, paying those few lazy folk keeps them away from the hard workers, and gives them money to put through the economy. Not enough to be complacent, but at least enough they don't need to decide between heating and eating.