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Llangrannog Beach car park - PCNs when prevented from paying

ParkingMad
ParkingMad Posts: 339 Forumite
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edited 4 November 2019 at 4:02PM in Parking tickets, fines & parking
Llangrannog Beach car park is managed by One Parking Solution. They are issuing a large number of PCNs to motorists who are attempting to pay but are unable to do so.

There is a cash only P&D machine to enter your registration, select duration and pay. It prints a ticket with the vehicle registration on it. Unfortunately the machine has been faulty during the peak summer months. It runs on battery which charges from a built-in solar panel.

It is also possible to pay via the JustPark app. Unfortunately there is no mobile phone signal on some networks. According to the Ofcom website, Vodafone and O2 do not have any coverage for voice calls or internet. This includes Talk Talk, Tesco Mobile, Sky Mobile and Giff Gaff.

https://checker.ofcom.org.uk/mobile-coverage
The postcode is SA44 6SL.

There is a JustPark phone number to pay by phone or text, but it is not possible to use this if you have no mobile phone signal.

The car park signs state that payment must be made before leaving the car park.
Some people have managed to pay by using the wi-fi in the nearby businesses, but they have received PCNs because they took longer than 10 minutes to pay, or left the car park before paying.

These are the signs:
Main sign https://www.dropbox.com/s/zctorfj2tejr14y/big%20sign.JPG?dl=0
Terms and conditions sign https://www.dropbox.com/s/3iio7hk01qdbq06/small%20sign.JPG?dl=0
JustPark app photo from TripAdvisor review https://www.dropbox.com/s/z4nex0qbr5dtujb/app.PNG?dl=0
Pay and Display machine https://www.dropbox.com/s/8m8h8d6ounqudwk/P%26D%20machine.JPG?dl=0


Please could anyone advise if the 10 minute [STRIKE]grace period[/STRIKE] time limit for paying can be enforced if it is not mentioned on the signage?

Some stories in the local newspaper:
http://www.cambrian-news.co.uk/article.cfm?id=130159&headline=Police%20informed%20over%20car%20park&sectionIs=letters&searchyear=2019

http://www.cambrian-news.co.uk/article.cfm?id=129984&headline=Mum%27s%20parking%20ticket%20for%20changing%20baby%27s%20nappy%20overturned&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2019

People are leaving bad reviews about Llangrannog Beach on TripAdvisor because of the parking situation:
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g1118313-d7020471-Reviews-Llangrannog_Beach-Llangrannog_Ceredigion_Wales.html#REVIEWS

What would be the best appeal points to use in this situation? Thank you.
«13456710

Comments

  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,225 Forumite
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    edited 20 September 2019 at 10:22PM
    Please could anyone advise if the 10 minute grace period for paying can be enforced if it is not mentioned on the signage?
    The signs do not need to ever mention any grace period.

    But the 10 mins is fluid anyway and what you describe is a situation where the observation/transaction period must be longer in this particular car park and that the contract can only fairly start when the money is PAID, regardless of whether that takes more then 10 mins (as long as the driver makes reasonable endeavours straight away after parking), given the facts and complaints and newspaper articles.

    Do you have a court claim? What is the issue date on the claim form?

    Or are you at appeal stage, in which case the first appeal is just the template in the NEWBIES thread.

    Then POPLA in more detail of course, without saying who was driving.

    You will need to use Kelvin Reynolds words about observation and grace periods, so search this forum for his name. Use his article which shows the arrival transaction period is fluent, and separate from/additional to the 10 mins grace at the END.

    Not needed until POPLA stage and or court defences of course but useful for you to read it now as he is a high up top banana in OPS' Trade Body and he says some car parks need longer than 10 mins.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • ParkingMad
    ParkingMad Posts: 339 Forumite
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    edited 3 September 2019 at 6:34PM
    Apologies, I meant that the operator only allows 10 minutes for payment after entering the car park, but I can't see this mentioned on the signs. How would motorists know about this?

    I have amended my post above.

    Thank you very much, Coupon-mad. These are very useful points to use in appealing to POPLA.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,225 Forumite
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    edited 2 September 2019 at 3:53PM
    I meant that the operator only allows 10 minutes for payment after entering the car park, but I can't see this mentioned on the signs.
    Never is and shouldn't be on the signs anyway. This is not something to mention.

    If you are at POPLA stage you need to copy the split grace period POPLA wording you find on other threads. NOT other posts, and NEVER talking about the full minutes added together.

    Split them. Before and after paying/parking, and go into real detail with photos & evidence & articles about how long it takes, and most POPLA Assessors will like that.

    If you don't put this is the right way to POPLA, you will lose.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Hi,
    I am currently in dispute with One Parking Solutions Ltd for the same reason. I was not driving at the time and I have not named the driver. The driver (who suffers badly with IBS) drove into the car park and went straight to the toilets without having had time to read the notices or pay. After 15 minutes they went to pay but there were several people already trying to pay but the machine wasn't working. Unsure what to do they decided to leave the car park and did so within 20 minutes of arriving.
    Being the registered keeper of the vehicle the first correspondence I received was from ZZPS, a debt recovery agency asking for payment of £100 for the PCN and a further £80 added themselves for Admin Charges. (I never received the first Notice To Keeper). I have now received a letter from QDR Solicitors adding a further £12 to the charge suggesting I pay within 14 days or they may take further action.
    Having decided to look into this company, I was pretty shocked to see the number of people in the same position who have received PCN's when there were legitimate reasons for them not paying, mainly because the machine was not working. This got me looking further and more and more details came out about the disgusting way this company operates. A lot of people would pay this charge as they would be worried about further charges being added and the possibility of being taken to court. This company must be making a tidy profit mainly from these unfair and unreasonable charges.
    I am currently appealing against my charge and will not lay down quietly. Any one else in the same position, I have been in touch with the Llangrannog Welfare Committee who have received many complaints themselves about OPS Ltd. They are currently trying to set some thing up so all the disgruntled Patrons can come together with one voice. If this is you please contact the Secretary so she can add you to the list of complaints. kldawes@gmail.com
  • Hi, also been had by this company. Ticket machine not working. I have identified myself as the driver as they sent me confusing letter which implied that I needed to advise who the driver was for them to accept appeal. But I wasn't the driver. You can see that from the ANPR. So I am at POPLA stage waiting for POPLA, but from what I have been reading, I am expecting the appeal to be rejected. I am wording an email to MP Ben lake; ben.lake.mp@parliament.uk the Ceredigion MP and I will be writing to the non impartial BPA also info@britishparking.co.uk. It seems this car park is an issue for the village and I'm hoping people can get together and sort this out. Llangrannog online 5* ratings are taking a hit with Google and TripAdvisor with people saying they will not visit again.
  • To clarify. I am the registered keeper, but was not driving. But OPS made it out that they would only accept the appeal from the driver.
  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 58,214 Forumite
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    Hi,
    I am currently in dispute with One Parking Solutions Ltd for the same reason. I was not driving at the time and I have not named the driver. The driver

    went to pay but there were several people already trying to pay but the machine wasn't working. Unsure what to do they decided to leave the car park and did so within 20 minutes of arriving.
    Being the registered keeper of the vehicle the first correspondence I received was from ZZPS, a debt recovery agency asking for payment of £100 for the PCN and a further £80 added themselves for Admin Charges. (I never received the first Notice To Keeper). I have now received a letter from QDR Solicitors adding a further £12 to the charge suggesting I pay within 14 days or they may take further action.
    Having decided to look into this company, I was pretty shocked to see the number of people in the same position who have received PCN's when there were legitimate reasons for them not paying, mainly because the machine was not working. This got me looking further and more and more details came out about the disgusting way this company operates. A lot of people would pay this charge as they would be worried about further charges being added and the possibility of being taken to court. This company must be making a tidy profit mainly from these unfair and unreasonable charges.
    I am currently appealing against my charge and will not lay down quietly. Any one else in the same position, I have been in touch with the Llangrannog Welfare Committee who have received many complaints themselves about OPS Ltd. They are currently trying to set some thing up so all the disgruntled Patrons can come together with one voice. If this is you please contact the Secretary so she can add you to the list of complaints. kldawes@gmail.com

    If you have used your real name you should ask a Board Guide to change it.
    You should delete what the driver did before they tried to pay as I have done in my quote of your post.
    Happy_Ness wrote: »
    To clarify. I am the registered keeper, but was not driving. But OPS made it out that they would only accept the appeal from the driver.

    By all means both of you please contribute to this thread, and I suggest you exchange information with each other and the OP via PM if you think it will help, but if you need specific help with your own case then please both start your own threads.

    You may want to consider setting up a Fakebook help group for this site as others have done for the problems at Newcastle Airport.
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  • The_Deep
    The_Deep Posts: 16,830 Forumite
    Read this

    https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2014/04/transcript-donated-approved-judgment.html

    Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so consider complaining to your MP.

    Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

    Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
  • ParkingMad
    ParkingMad Posts: 339 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post Name Dropper
    edited 18 September 2019 at 9:55AM
    Here is an update on the situation at this car park from the local paper, the Cambrian News:

    ‘Lack of phone signal’ leaves visitors unable to pay for parking

    Monday, 16 September 2019

    by Chris Betteley - Aberystwyth, Machynlleth & Llanidloes reporter

    chris@cambrian-news.co.uk

    A parking company has dismissed a slew of complaints from visitors over £100 fines at a tourist hot spot in south Ceredigion after people said the machines were “not working” and that a lack of mobile signal left them unable to pay.
    One Parking Solution operate the car park next to the Ship Inn at Llangrannog, and have received numerous complaints and bad online reviews after dozens of people received £100 fines for not paying for parking tickets.
    The disgruntled visitors said that machines were broken and that the lack of signal in the area made it impossible to pay by phone or via a downloadable app.

    Comments on Trip Advisor since June say the situation at the car park – which is run separately from the Ship Inn – is “scandalous”.
    One review said: “I have been charged £100 like many others here. “The machine was jammed, the help phone number didn’t work and it took me precisely 22 minutes from arriving at the car park to faff about trying to pay and download the Just Parking App, which I eventually did in the pub using their wifi as there is no signal."

    Gavin Price, director of OPS, told the Cambrian News that he “failed to see the relevance in bad signal and not paying for parking”.
    “The car park accepts numerous ways to pay including coin, app, text, telephone, and it’s clearly a Pay & Display car park,” he said.
    “Drivers would be expected to arrive with a means of payment which include an adequate amount of coins.
    “Unfortunately the reality is a small portion of drivers choose not to abide by the clearly displayed terms and conditions of parking.”
    He added that he is “fully aware” of complaints, but said he would “like to see motorists educated further” to avoid fines.

    http://www.cambrian-news.co.uk/article.cfm?id=130415&headline=%E2%80%98Lack%20of%20phone%20signal%E2%80%99%20leaves%20visitors%20unable%20to%20pay%20for%20parking&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2019

    If anyone has got a PCN from this car park, please can they email llangrannogwelfare@gmail.com
    They are collecting all complaints to take this matter to the local MP.
  • The_Deep
    The_Deep Posts: 16,830 Forumite
    edited 18 September 2019 at 9:54AM
    They are issuing a large number of PCNs to motorists who are attempting to pay but are unable to do so.

    Complain to the land owner, tourist office, chamber of commerce, Trading Standards, and your MP.

    Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so consider complaining to your MP.

    Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

    Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
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