Llangrannog Beach car park - PCNs when prevented from paying

The_Deep

are OPS frequent visitors to court.

I should imagine they try not to be

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/2011/03/31/26000-fine-for-parking-firm/

IANAL but it seems obvious to me that if the machine does not accept coins then no contract can be entered into. The fact that there are other ways to pay, be they by phone, credit or debit card or token is immaterial. No coin of the realm equals no contract.


I am sure that most/all judges would agree with me.

Umkomaas

The_Deep wrote: »

are OPS frequent visitors to court.

I should imagine they try not to be

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/2011/03/31/26000-fine-for-parking-firm/

@TD - this is not about Douglas Harris' Observices Parking Consultancy, but the neutered c0ckhen's One Parking Services.

Have you had your meds today?

:doh:

ParkingMad

Another news article about Llangrannog car park;

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/car-park-llangrannog-fines-tearing-17369012

The car park said to be tearing a village apart has now become free
5 December 2019

People have previously been issued with fines of more than £100 for parking at the picturesque spot in west Wales.
A controversial car park at the centre of a village row will now offer free parking over the winter months, it has been announced.
The car park in the centre of Llangrannog in Ceredigion has for several months been a major bone of contention in the picturesque seaside village, with a large number of people falling foul to a parking system that threatened to turn visitors away.
One complainant has even referred to the village as a “no go zone” in light of the controversy, brought about by the introduction of an automatic number plate recognition system earlier this year.
The system, managed by One Parking Solution, requires people to pay for parking either with cash, over the phone or via an app.
However, people complained that the machine was regularly out of order, leaving it impossible to pay in the traditional method and forcing people to phone the company or try to pay online.
This often proved exceedingly difficult, according to locals, due to people not being able to get through on the number provided and a poor mobile phone signal.

Furthermore, internet connectivity in Ceredigion is notoriously unreliable in certain areas, resulting in visitors being unable to pay for their parking and receiving fines of £100 in the post, several weeks after their visit.
Now, following fierce criticism from locals and visitors, parking will be free at the car park over the winter.
Local pub, The Ship, which sits next to the car park, announced the change in policy on its Facebook page, posting: “We are delighted to let everyone know that parking in the Llangrannog car park is now FREE for this winter.”
The pub itself had been wrongly criticised by some who believed the landlords had control over the car park and the controversial parking system. This is not the case, however. The car park is privately owned and is not connected to the running and management of the pub.
Despite the free parking being a welcome boost for locals and tourists alike in the coming months, a payment system will make a return in time for next summer.
The charging will resume next March, but it is hoped that improvements will be made which will make it easier for people to pay successfully for their stay rather than face a potentially hefty fine.

Anthony Ramsey-Williams is a trustee of the trust which owns the car park, and he said the decision to shelve charging over the winter months was a goodwill gesture to the people of Llangrannog.
"We have met with the Llangrannog Welfare Committee and Ceredigion Council to review the car parking arrangements with them," said Mr Ramsey-Williams.
"They asked us to introduce a cheaper parking tariff for a one-hour stay as the minimum at the moment is two-hours but we felt it would be a goodwill gesture to offer free parking until March.
"We are also changing the payment machine ready for next March and adding other protections against multiple incidents of criminal damage at the site. "
Mr Ramsey-Williams added that from next year, visitors to the car park would be able to pay by card, something that had thus far not been possible. There will also be an improved wi-fi hot spot at the car park, making it easier for people to connect to the internet.

The hope therefore is that the summer of 2020 will not bring a repeat of the tension felt in Llangrannog in 2019.
Helena Boyesen, a member of Llangrannog Welfare Committee, said earlier this year at the height of the parking row: “We need to make this place as welcoming as possible.
“In the summer there’s a huge invasion of people and this year we saw more and more people getting upset.”

Coupon-mad

I predict it will be just as bad, from March, and a no-go zone again by the Summer.

Especially now that the BPA in its infinite 'wisdom' has allowed its members to cut the 10 minute observation period to park & pay, to JUST FIVE MINUTES...

...and even worse, shockingly, the BPA CoP actually says that the 5 min observation period ceases to be counted when people actually decide to stay. Yep, it then goes out the window and the person's time starts from when they were captured by ANPR driving in, but NO-ONE TELLS THE DRIVER THAT, and the PDT slip has a different time on it.

So, if it takes 10 mins to make the payment work, drivers will get a PCN anyway even if they leave the site EARLY!

If it takes 5 minutes to make it work, and the car is captured driving out of the site 6 minutes after paid-for time, then OPS can add 5 + 6 and issue a PCN alleging the 'ten minutes grace' has been breached.

Basically the BPA has cynically removed any allowed time to actually pay, contrary to what the BPA's Kelvin Reynolds clearly said in his article about good parking practice including two distinct grace periods.

And the BPA are trumpeting the new CoP and the ten minutes grace as if it's new.

Egbert_Nobacon

It all started earlier this year. The car park is privately owned and for the past few months One Parking Solution has been employed to manage it. There are cameras on the side of The Ship Inn which record every car that enters the car park.

Am I missing something here?

If the Ship Inn have no connection to the car park why are the cameras fixed to their building ?

Do the Ship Inn provide the electricity for the cameras ?

ParkingMad

The landowner owns the Ship Inn, the car park and the cameras. The Ship Inn landlord leases the pub from the landowner.

ParkingMad

the person's time starts from when they were captured by ANPR driving in

Doesn't this contradict the NCP v HMRC court case which stated that in a P&D car park, the parking contract starts at the moment the motorist, having paid, presses the green button to print the ticket?

WhenIam64

Doesn't this contradict the NCP v HMRC court case which stated that in a P&D car park, the parking contract starts at the moment the motorist, having paid, presses the green button to print the ticket?

This looks like the courts have pushed for this change in order to make decisions easier for judges. Possible explanation :

Pay and Display

1. Entry to a P&D car park, contract formed when payment made
2. This presumes the driver takes no more than 5 minutes
3. If more than 5 minutes the onus is on driver to explain why e.g. disabled
4. Consideration (E&W) is the payment

Non pay and display [All UK jurisdictions]

1. Entry is the start of the contract
2. Consideration is intent as in "intent to create legal relations"
3. Intent is automatically rebutted if car leaves in less than 5 minutes
4. If car leaves after more than 5 minutes, then onus is on driver to explain why there is no contract.

Makes the timing issue much simpler for the courts - and drivers. All they need is a [stop] watch

ParkingMad

Non pay and display [All UK jurisdictions]

1. Entry is the start of the contract

How can the contract start before the driver has read the terms and conditions?

If more than 5 minutes the onus is on driver to explain why

Judges say that the onus is on the claimant to prove their case, not on the defendant.

WhenIam64

Here is an example of someone parked for 91 seconds and leaving. A judge can make their own decisions based on intent.

https://combinedparkingsolutions.com/downloads/watts.pdf

The concept of the pendulum of proof switching between parties exists in the CRA 2015. It is not an unknown concept.