Should I challenge this postal PCN?

TrixA

Looking for some views on whether to challenge a postal PCN - there are split views in our household on this.

The driver, accompanied by an adult passenger and a baby, parked in a private parking lot. They only parked there because there was no other public parking in the area. Signage at the entrance indicated the carpark was operated by something called 'Phone & Pay'. On arrival the driver and the other person spent a few minutes decanting the baby from the car then went to the machine to pay. They had hoped to pay with coins but discovered the only way to pay was to download the'Phone & Pay app. They did this immediately, registered an account and entered payment card details. However, when they tried to actually make a payment they got an error message, which persisted despite multiple attempts. The error message said something like 'there's a problem, please try again but if the problem persists call our customer services department'. They continued to make further attempts to pay the parking charge using the app. After several unsuccessful attempts they noticed the reviews of this app on the App Store, which are shocking to say the least - it appears people have all sorts of problems with it, including the one experienced, but also they appear to be levying additional charges for use of the app, which are not detailed in the list of charges in the carparks they manage. At this point the driver and the other occupant agreed 'this seems like a total cowboy outfit, I think we should move the car immediately'. Once they had read the reviews of this company and their dubious charging practices they certainly did not want to call them and give them credit card details over the phone!

My husband has now received a postal PCN including two CCTV images which show his car entering and exiting the carpark - spending a total of 13 minutes there. My husband wants to challenge the PCN on the basis that multiple attempts to pay were made and were only prevented by the fact that the app wasn't working, and also the driver left immediately once it was realised payment was not possible. While I obviously agree that this is what happened, I think it would realistically be very hard for us to evidence it (unfortunately it did not occur to take any screenshots of the payment page or the error message), whereas the parking company (Civil Enforcement Ltd) has the CCTV images to support their case.

Thoughts?

nosferatu1001

1) Have you read the newbies thread? Its obvious and stuck near the top of the first page of the forum

2) PLEASE think of the poor people who have to read that wall of text. Paragraphs are your friend, as is, at a guess as I gave up, cutting out the waffle and giving us *facts*

3) As you willl know, from reading other threads, you do NOT tell the whole world who drove. Edit your post.

TrixA

Yes I did look at the newbies thread but to be honest I did not find it very useful or welcoming. It is very long, exceedingly technical, and seems to be mainly targeted at those wanting to aggressively challenge windscreen PCNs. I normally come to the MSE forums to get quick advice and opinions from people who know more than me about a topic - surely that's why it's called Money Saving Expert. I actually don't find the attitude of 'don't ask for help or start a new thread unless you've spent hours perusing and getting up to speed on all the detail' to be especially consistent with the spirit of MSE. If people are too busy to reply to a question from someone less knowledgeable than them they don't have to!

There is a certain irony in you complaining about my use of paragraphs/unnecessary detail while referring me to the newbie thread, which might be the most difficult piece of text to navigate I've ever read.

I read about the driver thing in the newbie text but I didn't really understand it. If we appealed the ticket and were unsuccessful we would pay the penalty charge, so I don't really see the point of keeping the driver secret. My question is whether it's better just to pay it quickly and get the discount, or if an appeal has any chance.

Quentin

From your latest post you haven't fully studied the faq

If your appeal is rejected that doesn't mean that you have to then pay!

This isn't straightforward. You do need to devote time to understanding the game

You cannot take everything in during one sitting

And no-one here will advise you to pay it off!

You came for help but reject it!

The ppcs monitor this forum and can use posts in your thread against you

That's why you were advised to edit your post to remove details of who was driving

But you can take a horse to water and all that!

Coupon-mad

Yes I did look at the newbies thread but to be honest I did not find it very useful or welcoming. It is very long, exceedingly technical, and seems to be mainly targeted at those wanting to aggressively challenge windscreen PCNs.

No it isn't. It has a one size fits all appeal for everyone to copy for every case.

Nothing aggressive about it, and it's not for windscreen PCNs only.

It needs to be long, to cover the different issues (BPA or IPC member, lease cars, Scotland, etc). But most of that doesn't apply to you, so the appeal is there to use.

CEL cases are all the same, always ANPR, and they are easy enough to beat.

TrixA

As I explained, I didn’t find the FAQs helpful in answering my question. I’ve had another look and I still don’t. With all due respect to the people who have clearly spent hours writing the thing, I’m not sure you realise how impenetrable it is to a layperson. I also did not experience the first poster’s approach of telling me off and lecturing me about an issue unrelated to the question I asked as helping me!

In my original post I was simply looking for advice from people who may be familiar with other similar cases on whether an appeal in my circumstances has a fighting chance of success, otherwise I won’t waste my time. I’m assuming the initial appeal to the company would not succeed so I’d need to go to POPLA, but if that didn’t succeed I’m honestly not interested in taking it further - not everyone is interested in a protracted legal battle over a £100 charge, however undeserved.

TrixA

Coupon-mad wrote: »

No it isn't. It has a one size fits all appeal for everyone to copy for every case.

Nothing aggressive about it, and it's not for windscreen PCNs only.

It needs to be long, to cover the different issues (BPA or IPC member, lease cars, Scotland, etc). But most of that doesn't apply to you, so the appeal is there to use.

CEL cases are all the same, always ANPR, and they are easy enough to beat.

What do CEL and ANPR stand for?

Quentin

As you would expect, acronyms used here are explained in the FAQ! (#5), others in general use should be googled - (CEL is a ppc - but you know that!)

Coupon-mad

With all due respect to the people who have clearly spent hours writing the thing, I’m not sure you realise how impenetrable it is to a layperson.

That's not the feedback we usually get.

People often just use the NEWBIES thread, submit the template, complain to the retailer (landowner) and win the case then post a thankyou afterwards.

It's a two pronged attack (appeal, and complain) that works.

What do CEL and ANPR stand for?

You told us the PPC was CEL, and ANPR is a well known acronym but I do take time out in post #5 of the NEWBIES FAQS to explain it and other standard acronyms - Automated Number Plate Recognition.

I’m assuming the initial appeal to the company would not succeed so I’d need to go to POPLA

I don't assume that, I am confident. Usually if the person complains to the retailer as the NEWBIES thread tells them to, CEL cases are cancelled with no POPLA needed.

My husband wants to challenge the PCN on the basis that we made multiple attempts to pay

Yes, good at POPLA stage if needed. NOT for CEL, it's pointless, they are cowboys and will reject it, and it's best not to give away the driver.

Hence the template appeal, just to get to POPLA & to get time to complain to the landowner in the meantime, as someone has contracted with CEL there. Does the place have an on-site retailer or a landowner to complain to, that you can ascertain by Googling?

If you have to do POPLA, they will like it if you can prove you left and paid for alternative parking within minutes. Can you prove that? POPLA cases can be won on that.

TrixA

Neither of those acronyms were in the FAQ. I’m still none the wiser as to whether we should challenge the PCN and on what grounds. Is the suggestion simply that all tickets should be challenged by refusing to admit who was driving the car? The examples in the template letter re PDT machines and overstay of minutes don’t seem to apply in my case?

Coupon-mad

Is the suggestion simply that all tickets should be challenged by refusing to admit who was driving the car?

Yes.

Hence the template appeal, just to get to POPLA & to get time to complain to the landowner in the meantime, as someone has contracted with CEL there.

The examples in the template letter re PDT machines and overstay of minutes don’t seem to apply in my case?

So change that line, without giving away who parked. Just use the royal 'we'.


My questions to you were:

Does the place have an on-site retailer or a landowner to complain to, that you can ascertain by Googling?

If you have to do POPLA, they will like it if you can prove you left and paid for alternative parking within minutes. Can you prove that? POPLA cases can be won on that.