Veggie and Vegan Rant

Prinzessilein

UKTigerlily wrote: »

We are the true animal lovers, who think exploiting them for entertainment, clothing, cosmetics and food is wrong *when we don't need to do so*.


People should all see the truth about how the animals they eat live, especially dairy/eggs

I, too, am an animal lover. I am concerned for animal welfare.

However, I am an omnivore. I choose to eat eggs (always free range), milk/dairy and meat/fish(ethically sourced) as well as lots of fruit, veg and pulses. (moderate portions of 'healthy' carbs too!...and chocolate!!!)

I DO see the truth about how animals live (and are slaughtered)….for some years I was veggie, but in later years I have become convinced that huge strides have been made in animal welfare, and now once again eat meat/fish....not every day, I do enjoy vegetarian food and it is MSE too!

I understand that you have done your research and come to the conclusion that livestock farming is 'cruel'...and I accept that you have chosen a vegan lifestyle as a result.

But please, allow me the same right to be an ethical omnivore....I HAVE looked into farming, my research leads me to different conclusions...and in no way does my eating meat make me less of a 'true animal lover'.

I would also say that we are in agreement as far as the 'entertainment' aspect goes!

Norman_Castle

UKTigerlily wrote: »

Meat eaters can eat other things, Vegans can't eat meat without causing immense suffering to the planet, the animals & also, to some extent, their health.

Not sure why you have such an issue with Vegans, we simply don't agree with paying for the supply of animal products which increases demand for them. We are the true animal lovers, who think exploiting them for entertainment, clothing, cosmetics and food is wrong *when we don't need to do so*.

I suspect many vegans consider themselves individuals with their own reasons for being vegan. Your post seems to assume all vegans have the same reasons and motivations as you for being vegan.

hugheskevi

I HAVE looked into farming, my research leads me to different conclusions

Could you share some of the research?

When I researched this, I found that ethical farming was still very damaging to the environment compared to the calorific and nutritional production of plant-based food (buying locally produced, grass-fed meat is far better, but still much more damaging than plant-based).

Despite claims of being humane and ethical, I think many of the claims are very questionable and not well-defined as to their exact meaning. For example, all major egg providers (including producers of higher welfare eggs such as Happy Eggs) still slaughter day-old male chicks and remove the beaks of chickens to prevent them attacking other animals when kept in large groups. Unless there is a small-scale local provider nearby (eg a rescue that sells eggs their hens produce), then sourcing eggs that are produced in ways that I would consider to be fully ethical just wasn't possible.

Similarly with milk, artificial insemination rather than natural breeding is used with all major providers, with calves being removed from cows at birth which is a traumatic experience for the cow. Similar to poultry, I could only find very small scale farms which produced milk that I think could reasonably be described as ethical.

The selective breeding resulting in abnormal animals to produce high yields is still a part of high welfare animal production. That leads to physical difficulties and usually a much reduced lifespan due to the stress placed on the animal's body from producing so many eggs/milk or being so big so as to maximise meat yield.

Personally I was unconvinced there is any humane way to breed and cost-effectively kill a large number of animals that do not want to die at an industrial-scale of production, and that animal welfare is not compatible with a primary motivation of profit, so I'm so interested in reading more research on this.

hollydays

Mr_Singleton wrote: »

I made a vegan carrot salad for lunch today from smoked salmon..... delicious!

Before I get any disapproving replies they were both orange coloured hence my right to call it carrot.

As a non vegetarian, why are you so obsessed with the thought people disapprove ??

Prinzessilein

hugheskevi wrote: »

Could you share some of the research?

When I researched this, I found that ethical farming was still very damaging to the environment compared to the calorific and nutritional production of plant-based food (buying locally produced, grass-fed meat is far better, but still much more damaging than plant-based).

Despite claims of being humane and ethical, I think many of the claims are very questionable and not well-defined as to their exact meaning. For example, all major egg providers (including producers of higher welfare eggs such as Happy Eggs) still slaughter day-old male chicks and remove the beaks of chickens to prevent them attacking other animals when kept in large groups. Unless there is a small-scale local provider nearby (eg a rescue that sells eggs their hens produce), then sourcing eggs that are produced in ways that I would consider to be fully ethical just wasn't possible.

Similarly with milk, artificial insemination rather than natural breeding is used with all major providers, with calves being removed from cows at birth which is a traumatic experience for the cow. Similar to poultry, I could only find very small scale farms which produced milk that I think could reasonably be described as ethical.

The selective breeding resulting in abnormal animals to produce high yields is still a part of high welfare animal production. That leads to physical difficulties and usually a much reduced lifespan due to the stress placed on the animal's body from producing so many eggs/milk or being so big so as to maximise meat yield.

Personally I was unconvinced there is any humane way to breed and cost-effectively kill a large number of animals that do not want to die at an industrial-scale of production, and that animal welfare is not compatible with a primary motivation of profit, so I'm so interested in reading more research on this.

Looking online will give all sorts of information...and misinformation!!!...on both sides of any argument.

I have actually visited farms - generally speaking, smaller farms - I prefer, whenever possible, to 'shop local' (disability is making this harder!...this not only has a lower carbon-footprint, but supports local workers and has the benefit of giving customers excellent local produce.

Not one of the farms that I have visited showed any evidence of beak-removal...the chickens are all running around free...and as the eggs are unfertilized there is NO 'potential of life' to worry about .


Modern technology is allowing eggs to be scanned and 'sexed' which will enable future farmers to reduce the number of male chickens born.

Equally, the cows I have seen do NOT have calves removed at birth. A family member worked on a dairy farm many years ago - and never saw this either....I am not denying this happens in larger, intensive dairy farming...but am not convinced it is the norm.

There is a local estate near us...a local butcher used to hold the licence to sell game from this estate...the animals were well supervised by a game warden, and led 'natural' lives...the culling was necessary to avoid over-population, and was all done under licence.

If you consider non animal-protein sources...such as tofu and Quorn, they are both know to have a worrying environmental impact....buying local meat is a better environmental option.

Other products - eaten by both vegans and omnis - needs to be considered for environmental impact - for example, food grown abroad - what impact has been made by clearing animal-habitats for enlarging the farming acreage?

I believe in sourcing food ethically...locally...and seasonally.

Retrogamer

Norman_Castle wrote: »

I suspect many vegans consider themselves individuals with their own reasons for being vegan. Your post seems to assume all vegans have the same reasons and motivations as you for being vegan.

To be fair, i've never met a vegan who wasn't vegan due to ethical reasons.

unrecordings

Norman_Castle wrote: »

Glad you enjoyed it. Fancy some chocolate with a glass of apple juice to wash it down.

Best laugh all day

hollydays

Prinzessilein wrote: »

Looking online will give all sorts of information...and misinformation!!!...on both sides of any argument.

I have actually visited farms - generally speaking, smaller farms - I prefer, whenever possible, to 'shop local' (disability is making this harder!...this not only has a lower carbon-footprint, but supports local workers and has the benefit of giving customers excellent local produce.

Not one of the farms that I have visited showed any evidence of beak-removal...the chickens are all running around free...and as the eggs are unfertilized there is NO 'potential of life' to worry about .


Modern technology is allowing eggs to be scanned and 'sexed' which will enable future farmers to reduce the number of male chickens born.

Equally, the cows I have seen do NOT have calves removed at birth. A family member worked on a dairy farm many years ago - and never saw this either....I am not denying this happens in larger, intensive dairy farming...but am not convinced it is the norm.

There is a local estate near us...a local butcher used to hold the licence to sell game from this estate...the animals were well supervised by a game warden, and led 'natural' lives...the culling was necessary to avoid over-population, and was all done under licence.

If you consider non animal-protein sources...such as tofu and Quorn, they are both know to have a worrying environmental impact....buying local meat is a better environmental option.

Other products - eaten by both vegans and omnis - needs to be considered for environmental impact - for example, food grown abroad - what impact has been made by clearing animal-habitats for enlarging the farming acreage?

I believe in sourcing food ethically...locally...and seasonally.

I think this article from the guardian explains the pros and cons.
Most calves ARE removed within 24 hours.
The longer the calves are left the more distressing it is for the cows.
Of course that's where the vegan argument comes in..

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/29/mums-ask-when-cows-and-their-calves-separated-rise-ethical-milk-vegan

Prinzessilein

hollydays - the Guardian article you linked suggests that an increasing number of farms across Europe and Australia are trying methods that allow the calf to stay with the mother for around 5 months, and also adopting strategies to minimise the stress when separating mother and calf.

These, are likely to be smaller farmers...I don't deny that larger more intensive farming is less compassionate.

We all need to source our food as far as possible - and to ensure that farmers are paid a fair amount for their produce, to incentivize the to explore more compassionate avenues.

hollydays

Obviously I've read it,as I posted it , but you are still paraphrasing the bits that suit you.
You've said you're not convinced taking away calves is the norm. It is.
The article also points out that welfare and compassion isn't that simple to define in any case.