Audi A2 1.4 SE (51 Plate) Cam Belt Snapped - who's liable for cost?

redux

I stiil don't see any statement of what the actual damage is.

If it is only a question of replacing the cambelt, then this would be recommended by now anyway, and no extra cost has been incurred at all, bar perhaps a towing fee.

Is the engine damaged as well, valves, cylinders, head etc? If so, you might be able to negotiate a goodwill discount from the head office, but I don't think you'd get it for nothing.

Labman_2

Mr_Friendly wrote: »

Peter thank you very much for your well thought out point of view and for taking the time to actually put across your opinion without resorting 9as other have) to downright abuse.

Mr Friendly

If you feel you have been subject to 'downright abuse', please REPORT IT!

I'm sick & tired of people asking questions on MSE & then taking the huff and accusing people who are expressing their honest opinion, of being abusive/rude/offensive/condescending, just because they disagree with their point of view. I politely suggest you report the 'downright abuse', as true abuse is not tolerated on MSE. I will watch with interest and await the abusive post(s) deletion.

Keeping_Positive

As other posts have said. Mr F hasnt answered the question on the number of dealer services and why the cam belt was not changed at 4 years? I would take a mileage/year figure to mean whichever soonest.

In the meantime, I really really must not put off changing the cam belt on our car any longer!

Mr_Friendly

dunstonh wrote: »

Mr Friendly, please can you let us know how many of the services were dealer services? You seem to be ignoring that and it is a crucial point.

I repeat that we know the dealer didnt do one of the services but what about the rest?

Apologies, the last two of the services were not dealer services.
HTH

dunstonh

Mr_Friendly wrote: »

Apologies, the last two of the services were not dealer services.
HTH

I think that has probably blown your chances. Year 4 & 5 not being serviced by an Audi dealer is critical as that is the period when the cambelt would have been replaced.

Different audi models have different timescales on replacement. I cannot see the one specific to your model but most say change before 60k miles or 5 years, whichever is first.

If an Audi dealer didnt service in year 4 & 5 then they never got the chance to replace it. Indeed, the claim should perhaps be against the firm that did the servicing then but their contract was with the previous owner, not you. The previous owner may have told them not to replace it as he would sell it and save the money.

darich

Mr_Friendly wrote: »

YAWN

Have you read your last statement? A wear and tear item.
I would agree had it been used to suffer wear and tear. It's done 32,000 miles, hardly wearing anything.

2 mechanical engineers and citizens advice later all say I'm in the right so I guess we'll see how it turns out. Had the car hit 50k or 60k then I would agree with everyone about it being tough luck, but at 32k I wont simply sit back and "take the hit". £2000 repair bill may be something you don't mind taking on the chin, I certainly don't.

It's been said on here already and i think you'll agree that the belt is largely made of rubber. Rubber deteriorates in time, especially in the environment of an engine bay.
Yes it's wear and tear....but don't you think that when it's not replaced it'll eventually wear and tear itself to destruction?

As someone else has said, you bought the car from a guy in the street. It is your responsibility to ensure the car is fit for purpose, roadworthy, safe etc etc. Additionally, the car is outwith Audi's warranty.
These 2 facts will mean that any positive response from Audi is voluntary - they have no obligation whatsoever to compensate you, refund you, repair the car, the part or even give you a reduction. It is entirely your responsibility.

But here's another thought.

What if the belt has been replaced at some time in the past and it's a non Audi part? So the non Audi part that was fitted by a nonAudi garage has broken and caused damage.
It that's the case they'll have an even stronger case - that's if it's not bullet proof already.

When my Polo was at 35k and 3.5years old and my ABS failed. I thought i was in the right too. But VW soon put me right on that one. When my gearbox failed a few months later at 42k miles. i was on at them again. Once again they said it was entirely my responsibilty.
I should add that i wrote numerous letters to their head office and my car was involved in a recall for a braking problem but still they refused to budge. I was in constant contact with my trading standards office and he suggested my only option was the small claims court.

You may be in a better position than i was - i was told i'd need the faulty/broken part inspected independently and present that to the Sheriff. Unfortunately i didn't have the parts to test.

So if you're prepared to go to court, pay for independent testing of the faulty belt then you may, just may get somewhere.

On the other hand, if the belt was due to be replaced at 4 years, but wasn't then snapped at almost 6, do you really believe Audi will be quaking in their boots?

kam05

Just wanted to add my 2p worth.....

As already said, most car manufacturers recommend changing timing belts, including tensioners at x amount of miles or x amount of years, whichever comes first. For example, I drive a Lexus IS200, Lexus recommend that for the IS200, the timing belt (along with tensioners) should be changed at 100,000 miles or when the car is 6 years old, whichever comes first.

My car was 6 years old back in June 2007 and it had 90,000 miles on the clock, I replaced my timing belt as soon as my car hit the 6 year old mark, I didn't choose to wait until 100,000 miles.

So my car could have done 20,000 miles in 6 years and Lexus would have recommend that the timing belt needed be changed based upon the age of the car. Or my car could have done 100,000 in 2 years and Lexus would still say the timing belt needs changing based on mileage.

As far as I can see, you are responsible for the maintainace of your car, not Audi, unless you have some sort of maintainance agreement with them. As you are persuing Audi for the damage to your car, I hope you get the outcome you want, although I have to be honest, you don't have much of a chance.

Good luck.

vikingaero

My local uber-reliable mechanic takes the recommendations with a pinch of salt. He says that you should always change the cambelt upon ownership irrespective of history because you can't trust what other people have done.

A 6 year old, 32,000 mile car has sat around for most of it's life deteriorating. Sounds like most of the journeys are short engine killers.

peterbaker

MrFriendly, I am pleased you found some succour in my words, but I don't want to lead you too far down the wrong path...

I do agree with others that you are probably flogging an almost dead horse given that the last two services were not done at Audi. There is barely a connection with Audi on your car now, other than the fact they built it

That's exactly the opposite of my situation. Although when I bought mine, it was in exactly the same fix except I knew it needed a service, I deliberately rectified it by taking immediately to the dealer (whom I knew were the original dealers and service workshop) and asking them to inspect it with a fine tooth comb and report what it needed just as they would if they were about to sell it themselves. They said it was fine and just needed a full service which I let them do. That kind of put down the marker, and it was after two full services that I was able to nail them with a problem.

I do strongly agree that in an ideal world, this remaining connection (Audi designed and built the damn thing and it's only done 32K!) should be enough to get Audi interested, but the fact is that all that has happened is that their built in design fault has worked perfectly by their book, and increased the chances of you spending money in one of their dealer's workshops just as they planned. No company that has such a strategy is going to budge further, and nor will their individual dealers do so in their stead, unless they feel directly responsible having been the regular service workshop, ideally working directly for you and not a previous owner.

Having said that, you have mentioned a £2,000 bill which I assume the Audi dealer has quoted? The smartest man alive earlier in the thread suggests that when the cambelt breaks on this particular model it usually doesn't cause any damage to the engine so can be fixed merely by replacing the belt and tensioner. That should only cost a tenth of what you were quoted. £300 at most at the dealer I would think (that's about what it cost on my A6 I think).

Now that might be fresh grounds for hammering your dealer if there is in fact no damage to your engine and they're thinking they'll just have you over a barrel .

I think you'll struggle to get any decent response out of Audi UK HO.

Assuming you plan to keep this A2, if it was me (and I am a bit Jekyl and Hyde when it comes to shucking oysters!) I think I'd be using a bit of carrot and stick at the dealers. You might want to take the current opportunity to bring it back up to 'dealer serviced' standard. As it is basically due for a cambelt change by the timeline in the book, then accept that you need to pay £200 or so for that (ask them what they would normally charge for a straight replacement and tell them you've heard that there is unlikely to be any other damage as it is an A2 and the engine wasn't under load when it 'went'). At the same time get them to do a full service early and to check it over to their standard. I.e. be prepared to spend a total of £500 - £600 with them.

As there is obviously some doubt about the third party servicing it has had recently, if you could get them to fix the belt and bring it up to their standard for a reasonable sum (not the finger in the air £2,000 of course :rolleyes:), then you will be back in the fold so to speak with the ability to press them hard if you need to, another day :money:


There are a few other hidden benefits of Audi dealer servicing (invitations to new launches , courtesy car or collection and delivery on servicing, maybe even complimentary recovery service) which you may be able to reconcile with spending a few hundred quid with them. You can always decide again in a year or two whether you'll get cheaper independent servicing done on it instead, but I personally think that getting Audi themselves to fit the cambelt this time if you can stay onside with them and get them to agree you don't have to spend too much will be worth it in future engine insurance terms, and resale value.

steve-o_3

Mr. F.

I understand your frustration, but really, I can't see how this can be pinned on the Manufacturer or the dealer?

First, your cambelt isn't simply recommended for change at 60k miles, but also after 5 years of service (This is because the belt doesn't just wear with milage, the material also degrades and weakens over time). Your car is past that term, so you have no case for this point, even if its a day over the 5 years, unfortunately just the way it is.

Second, the 5 year 60k term is subject to various conditions, your car has not been serviced by Audi or their authorised centres all of its life, so Audi, nor a dealer cannot be held liable for a third party telling you your cambelt is still in good condition.

Third, the service intervals are simply guidelines and only take into account perfect working conditions. Should your car at any point (and I am not saying this is the case, its just an example) have picked up any road debris, or the belt be catching on something, maybe something came loose, tensioners worn etc etc etc (called accelerated wear), Audi are also not liable as all aspects of a cars general maintenance are the responsibility of the owner, no one else. And as you did not get the belt serviced / checked by Audi, they could not forsee any accelerated wear and advise you for an early change.

I really can appreciate your view, but I honestly don't see they've done anything wrong? They build in a lifespan and it has met the 5 year 60k span.

I'm in the same situation with my Audi, I bought it about 6 months ago. Its a 2000 W reg and had its belt changed by a non Audi garage at 60k miles, great right? Wrong! As a cautious motorist, I know if the belt went now, I still have no-one to go back to, its a non Audi OEM part and cam belts can go before their time sometimes through "accelerated wear" which has nothing to do with the belt itself or its design (such as my third point above).

Which is why on my next service I intend to get the belt changed again with Audi themselves so I know I have peace of mind and more of a leg to stand on by having an essential bit of maintenance like this done with a dealer. This waiting till next service is the same risk you were willing to take and you did it consciously, just like I am. It could prove that the risk I'm taking waiting till the next service is penny wise, pound foolish, but if the belt goes, I have to accept it was a conscious choice I made not to get the belt done at Audi straight away.

Unless you can prove the belt was within its expected lifespan, that it has been properly maintained by Audi authorised dealers and that there was a defect with the belt and it didn't snap through any other "accelerated wear", I'm afraid you will come out of this with nothing more than a bill to repair your car and high blood pressure through ranting with them.

I don't see how they're to blaim here? But maybe I'm missing some of the story.

I'd love to be able to offer some positive advice, but I genuinely don't see this as a dealer issue. You and the former keepers have chose to exceed the 5 year limit and have services carried outside of Audi, I can't see how you can go back to them now? Thats like having a 5 year 30,000 hour guarnatee on a Panasonic TV where the guarantee is valid as long as it is checked yearly with them, you then go to your local TV shop to get it checked and they give you the thumbs up, then at 6 years, you go back to Panasonic complaining that you only used the TV for 10,000 hours and want them to sort it out? It just won't happen.

Sorry mate, I don't see you getting them to take this one on. I personally wouldn't bother, but I can see you're probably going to anyway, so good luck!!!