BW Legal - Any help very much appreciated...

didgeridoooo

WS removed.

Umkomaas

All I'd say is that this now runs to 4,250 words - or around 10 sides of A4.

Just look around some of the very recent court reports and how little time the Defendant has to say anything at all in most court hearings - which often last less than a few minutes.

Do you think a very busy Judge, with dozens of cases to deal with on the day, will be more - or less - impressed with that volume of verbiage to not only read, but to also contextualise? If you expect him/her to do so, send it in.

There are only so many times we can plough through your drafts in your attempt to get us to try to gild the lily for you.

This thread is now 272 posts deep, and is way out of proportion to almost all other threads we have dealt with previously.

I can't run back through all the past inputs, but just how much are the PPC trying to take you for?

didgeridoooo

Umkomaas wrote: »

Just look around some of the very recent court reports and how little time the Defendant has to say anything at all in most court hearings - which often last less than a few minutes.

From my research on the forum the impression I had was 20 minutes. However, I did not know this statement has to be read out in that hearing. I thought the Defence and WS was for J and C to read before the hearing, perhaps to decide whether to discontinue, strike out, or just learn about the case. So I wanted (and it's a big known failing of mine which I don't seek to deny) to ensure EVERY point I can make against this claim gets "in" somewhere. My failure/problem.

Umkomaas wrote: »

Do you think a very busy Judge, with dozens of cases to deal with on the day, will be more - or less - impressed with that volume of verbiage to not only read, but to also contextualise?

Sounds rhetorical, but the real answer is I do not know. Some I am sure may be pi55ed off by it. Others (I thought) may appreciate the effort to try to win the case. Others (I also thought) may just read the POFA beginning, see several more pages, and be more inclined to let POFA stick, if not wishing to read any more arguments. Devious? Or playing the game? I don't know. I just want to win, and find it quite literally impossible to leave anything out which I think is relevant. A psychological problem of mine perhaps.

Umkomaas wrote: »

There are only so many times we can plough through your drafts...

With genuine respect, I haven't had 'that' many "ploughs" through my content. I have seen far more on other threads, including people's stuff being edited or even written for them by contributors here. I have never received that, nor asked, nor expected it. But I don't agree the length of this thread is evidence of how much time or help I have been given compared to other threads I have read. Part of the reason the thread is so long is the discussion (which doesn't happen on other threads very often, if at all) as to POFA being worth using, or personal circumstances/story being told, admitting driver. This wasn't as simple a case as many others, because POFA can be used (driver unidentified) but the true events stand on their own as a good defence too. Various people have posted to say it's a debatable call to make, POFA is strong, but perhaps not as strong as admitting driver. I have also been very indecisive on this myself which stretched the thread longer than most.

Umkomaas wrote: »

in your attempt to get us to try to gild the lily for you.

Unfair, untrue, insulting, and presumptious of you to think to know (and impugn) my motives. How do you know what's in my mind? For the record, if I was attempting to "get" anyone to do anything, it was to TRIM the lily, not "gild" it. I suspect (from your comments) I have over-gilded it myself already. But not through a desire to make it "pretty", just to make as sure as I can that we do not LOSE this case, as I can't describe how much we can ill-afford to pay the sum of £260 odd right now, plus costs and travel etc.

Umkomaas wrote: »

This thread is now 272 posts deep, and is way out of proportion to almost all other threads we have dealt with previously.

I can only apologise for that, and solve it by deleting it, which I shall. I keep hearing the same comments (I know, I should learn from them, and I have) that the thread is xxx posts or xxx pages long. I accept this, but it's said as if, just because I am the OP, that is all my fault. It takes quite a few to tango, and considering the back and forth over defending as Driver v RK, and the fact that we are all different, and I am admittedly way more verbose than most (a fault of mine), the thread is long but I didn't "try" to make it long, it grew a little more naturally than that, without me feeding it steroids in some desire to make it as long as necessary, surprising as that may sound. While comparing my thread to others, it might also be worth comparing the number of times I thank the contributors who chip in, which I also think is disproportionate to other threads. In short, I am the very last person who fails to see the great generosity of posters in here, or to thank them for it. I hope that may count for something too, if we are comparing.

It seems I can't win for trying, at least to some extent, but I take plenty of the blame for the thread growing, just not all of it. Example: KeithP asked above for me to post my WS. It was longer than the one I just posted! It was also written in first person, telling events as driver, thus admitting driver. nofseratu talked me out of that (rightly) so I knew I had to rewrite the whole thing to change it to 3rd person, before wasting anyone's time reading something I wasn't going to submit. I tried to do the right thing by saying thanks but no, not wanting to subject him, others, and indeed the thread to 5000 words until I was more sure I might actually submit it. That somehow annoyed KeithP who walked away insulted.

Thanks to everyone for the immense help and advice. I apologise for the nuisance I have undoubtedly been. I mean that, I am not gilding anything, I have felt the annoyance of posters in messages for some time so I am clearly doing something wrong. I think the best thing to do would be delete this thread and consider whether I can trust myself enough to start another which will remain a lot shorter now that I know much more about things. Or just carry on regardless. After all, if the hearings last 3 minutes, I am obviously giving this way too much time. Just not sure HOW to delete any of the points I so badly want to bring to the J's attention, even though I know I must. For me, this is like sliding my finger over a razor, reflex won't allow deletion of anything just in case it's what wins it for me. It's a very real problem, my problem, nobody else's. And I must find a way around it or face the ire of the J. I will do my best to resolve it.

Thank again to the entire board, without which these PP swines would have a clear ride.

nosferatu1001

A witness statement is written in the first person, as it is the personal knowledge of the witness.

You can *hope* that someone reads youYour WS will usually be read before the hearing, but again - you have a judge with 20 cases, and youre one of them. Do you want them to read something tight and focussed?

Your style is to write verbosely. You cannot jkeep doing that. It is *hard* to write concisely, but you have to learn how to do so. Your recent posts are a great example of how not to do that - you feel the need to over explain everything. Dont.

I gave up reading your WS. Pretty sure a judge will as well.

Keeo it short and sharp. It is a recitation of FACTS. Not waffle. Not extraneous detail.

BrownTrout

One page of a4 is ample for these simple cases.

didgeridoooo

Will try to do exactly as you say. Thanks very much. I think it's an insecurity thing too. 'What if those points don't do it, and i miss this one out which could have won it for me.....' type of thing.
Still, some points are better than all being ignored due to length. I understand this intellectually, just making my fingers do it is where I seem incapable. I will find some bolt crops and see if having only 2 fingers helps. Right now I am not entirely sure that's as much of a joke as it sounds
I think a new replacement thread beginning with a concise WS might be a good idea.

Umkomaas

I think a new replacement thread beginning with a concise WS might be a good idea.

Please don't! You'll be undoubtedly asked by any regular, unfamiliar with the details of the case, to provide information already included and answered here previously, and the merry-go-round will start revolving again.

Forum etiquette requires one thread per case.

nosferatu1001

One thread per case is the rule.

Your WS supports your defence, and provides SOME detail to give context to the claim.

But by support, youre not repeating your defence, and youre not aiming to write war and peace

didgeridoooo

Thanks v much

DoaM

didgeridoooo wrote: »

Thanks both. Yes I didn't mean a second thread, I meant have this deleted and summarise important bits in new one, tidy it all up but keep the salient points, me doing the work rather than people having to read back all these pages for bits of info which I doubt anyone will do as it's way too long. Even I struggle and it's my own darn thread!

Why not create a new reply to this thread doing just that? Then follow it with another reply with your final WS?

That way, if anyone is minded to check back to clarify anything then they only need to stick to this thread.