Would I Need To Re-Sit Test ?

SHAFT

Joe_Horner wrote: »

That's not for expired photocards though.

That's for situations such as getting a totting up ban then starting to drive again without applying to have your licence reinstated when it finishes.

At that point you don't have a licence because it's suspended until you ask for it back but you would have got one if you asked.

So if a requirement of holding said licence is you must surrender it to the secretary of state for renewal of the photograph within a ten year of ten years from the date of issue and you fail to do so then how are you drive in accordance with the conditions of said licence?

SHAFT

Car_54 wrote: »

Can you quote a source for that?

Section 87(1) Road Traffic Act.

almillar

Section 87(1) Road Traffic Act.

That's not a quote.

Car_54

SHAFT wrote: »

Section 87(1) Road Traffic Act.

That simply says it's an offence, it doesn't specify sentences. However, since asking the question I have done a bit of research and you're right!
Well, almost. It's an endorsable offence, but one of those where endorsement is not mandatory.

SHAFT

Car_54 wrote: »

That simply says it's an offence, it doesn't specify sentences. However, since asking the question I have done a bit of research and you're right!
Well, almost. It's an endorsable offence, but one of those where endorsement is not mandatory.

No the two offences are quite clearly different driving otherwise in accordance other than for admin matters is an endorsable offence. It's not an offence with a discretionary endorsement.

If you look at sentencing guidelines there are two listings the non endorsable offence has the wording where could be covered.

Car_54

SHAFT wrote: »

No the two offences are quite clearly different driving otherwise in accordance other than for admin matters is an endorsable offence. It's not an offence with a discretionary endorsement.

If you look at sentencing guidelines there are two listings the non endorsable offence has the wording where could be covered.

There are indeed two listings. But only one offence: as you've previously pointed out, RTA section 87(1). The guidelines simply cater for different circumstances.

SHAFT

Car_54 wrote: »

There are indeed two listings. But only one offence: as you've previously pointed out, RTA section 87(1). The guidelines simply cater for different circumstances.

The fixed penalty system also caters for the two offences.

Joe_Horner

SHAFT wrote: »

So if a requirement of holding said licence is you must surrender it to the secretary of state for renewal of the photograph within a ten year of ten years from the date of issue and you fail to do so then how are you drive in accordance with the conditions of said licence?

Ahh, I think I see where your confusion lies now - you don't understand how to read complex legislation (and, to be fair, the relevant section of the RTA (S.99) is quite complex because of all the exceptions, age limits and different rules for HGV / PSV etc).

It's generally helpful to break it down over 2 or 3 "passes". On the first read through you concentrate on which of the (potentially many) branching conditions apply, or don't apply, in this particular case.

In this case, we're talking about the general case of a generic, no-frills, licence - no goods or PSV entitlements, no age restrictions (i'm assuming the OP isn't getting close to 70), and no disqualifications or revocations for points etc.

So, we start with the first paragraph, and ignore the bits that don't apply in our general case:

99 Duration of licences.
(1)In so far as a licence authorises its holder to drive motor vehicles of classes other than any prescribed class of goods vehicle or any prescribed class of passenger-carrying vehicle, it shall, unless previously revoked or surrendered, remain in force, subject to subsection (2) below COLOR="MediumTurquoise"]SS2 doesn't apply, it's about provisional licences[/COLOR—

(a)except in a case falling within paragraph (b) or (c) of this subsection, for the period ending on the seventieth anniversary of the applicant’s date of birth [STRIKE]or for a period of three years, whichever is the longer[/STRIKE]COLOR="mediumturquoise"]Doesn't apply - age limit[/COLOR,

(b)COLOR="mediumturquoise"]doesn't apply - medical time restrictions[/COLOR

(ii)COLOR="mediumturquoise"]doesn't apply - age limit for 70 year olds[/COLOR

(c)COLOR="mediumturquoise"]doesn't apply - it's about replacement licences only lasting as long as the old one[/COLOR

(1A)COLOR="mediumturquoise"]doesn't apply - it's about Goods and PSV licences[/COLOR

So in our general case, once the "not relevant to the case" stuff is removed, that first paragraph boils down to:

In so far as a licence authorises its holder to drive motor vehicles it B][I][COLOR="mediumturquoise"]ie: the licence[/COLOR][/I][/B shall, unless previously revoked or surrendered, remain in force —

(a) for the period ending on the seventieth anniversary of the applicant’s date of birth

There, that's more manageable already

The important and relevant part to take from that entire, complex, paragraph is simply that:

"It [ie: the licence] shall, unless previously revoked or surrendered, remain in force for the period ending on the seventieth anniversary of the applicant’s date of birth"

Without revoking "it", or the holder voluntarily surrendering "it", there is no provision for shortening the validity of "it" to earlier than the holder's 70th birthday. By plain English construction "it" is clearly referring to "the licence".


If we now turn to SS.99(2A - 2H) which relate to the surrender and replacement of a photocard and do the same thing:

(2A)Where in accordance with the preceding provisions of this section, a licence in the form of a photocard remains in force after the last day of the administrative validity period, the holder of the licence must nevertheless surrender the licence to the Secretary of State not later than that day.

(2B)COLOR="MediumTurquoise"]doesn't apply - only concerned with how long the basic administrative validity is, not what happens when it expires[/COLOR

(2C)COLOR="MediumTurquoise"]doesn't apply - only concerned with how long a special case administrative validity is, not what happens when it expires[/COLOR

(2D)COLOR="MediumTurquoise"]doesn't apply - only concerned with how long a special case administrative validity is, not what happens when it expires[/COLOR

(2E)COLOR="MediumTurquoise"]doesn't apply - only concerned with how long a special case administrative validity is, not what happens when it expires[/COLOR

(2F)COLOR="mediumturquoise"]doesn't apply - exceptions to non-applicable S.(2E)[/COLOR

(2G)COLOR="mediumturquoise"]doesn't apply - correction of errors[/COLOR

(2H)COLOR="mediumturquoise"]doesn't apply - relates to age limits[/COLOR

So, for our general case, that whole word soup of 8 interlinked subsections boils down to:

(2A)Where in accordance with the preceding provisions of this section, a licence in the form of a photocard remains in force after the last day of the administrative validity period, the holder of the licence must nevertheless surrender the licence to the Secretary of State not later than that day.

And there's the killer blow to your argument because that quite clearly, in the legislation, says:

"Where a licence remains in force after the last day of the administrative validity (of the photocard), the holder must nevertheless (ie: even though it's still in force) surrender it to the Secretary of State"

So there, with a little patient analysis and understanding, is the relevant law actually stating - in so many words - that a licence remains in force after the photocard administratively expires.


In light of the above, I'll leave you to practice your newfound skills working out what (if any) offences apply for driving after the photocard expires (and their basis in statute) and whether any offences might apply to simply failing to update your photocard even without actually driving.

SHAFT

Joe_Horner wrote: »

Ahh, I think I see where your confusion lies now - you don't understand how to read complex legislation (and, to be fair, the relevant section of the RTA (S.99) is quite complex because of all the exceptions, age limits and different rules for HGV / PSV etc).

It's generally helpful to break it down over 2 or 3 "passes". On the first read through you concentrate on which of the (potentially many) branching conditions apply, or don't apply, in this particular case.

In this case, we're talking about the general case of a generic, no-frills, licence - no goods or PSV entitlements, no age restrictions (i'm assuming the OP isn't getting close to 70), and no disqualifications or revocations for points etc.

So, we start with the first paragraph, and ignore the bits that don't apply in our general case:



So in our general case, once the "not relevant to the case" stuff is removed, that first paragraph boils down to:



There, that's more manageable already

The important and relevant part to take from that entire, complex, paragraph is simply that:

"It [ie: the licence] shall, unless previously revoked or surrendered, remain in force for the period ending on the seventieth anniversary of the applicant’s date of birth"

Without revoking "it", or the holder voluntarily surrendering "it", there is no provision for shortening the validity of "it" to earlier than the holder's 70th birthday. By plain English construction "it" is clearly referring to "the licence".


If we now turn to SS.99(2A - 2H) which relate to the surrender and replacement of a photocard and do the same thing:



So, for our general case, that whole word soup of 8 interlinked subsections boils down to:



And there's the killer blow to your argument because that quite clearly, in the legislation, says:

"Where a licence remains in force after the last day of the administrative validity (of the photocard), the holder must nevertheless (ie: even though it's still in force) surrender it to the Secretary of State"

So there, with a little patient analysis and understanding, is the relevant law actually stating - in so many words - that a licence remains in force after the photocard administratively expires.


In light of the above, I'll leave you to practice your newfound skills working out what (if any) offences apply for driving after the photocard expires (and their basis in statute) and whether any offences might apply to simply failing to update your photocard even without actually driving.

Why don't you go and google the offence of not updating the photocard.

It exist.

Joe_Horner

SHAFT wrote: »

Why don't you go and google the offence of not updating the photocard.

It exist.

I don't need to google it. It's a summary offence contrary to S.99(5) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 of failing to surrender a licence or counterpart.

The (maximum) penalty is defined in the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, schedule 2, as a fine of level 3 on the standard scale and no penalty points.

But when and how does someone commit it?